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Tsmg 1921 S/n 836


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#1 Mala

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 12:32 PM

Cheers!

Sorry to start by begging for help, but my knowledge of TSMG is really thin. The story is that I have an opportunity to buy what appears to be a genuine and rather early Colt mfgt 1921. Gun is in rather sad shape externally, but 1921s are not that common here in Finland...

This gun has normal 1921 markings but the odd thing is that the guns serial number has been ground off from both upper and lower parts of receiver. Current owner tells me that thin "836" markings can still be detected from both parts. I remember reading that there was a "hidden" location for s/n somewhere in the TSMG, but that required barrel removal?

Any guesses what is the story behind this piece? IRA?

Mala
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#2 Hawkeye_Joe

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 01:34 PM

I'm not an expert by any means but I think there is one under the front grip rail on the bottom of the barrel..near where it attaches..
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#3 John Jr

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 02:25 PM

If thats correct, you can remove the barrel and grip mount. The SN will be under the grip mount and inside the face of the barrel.

Jr
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#4 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 03:16 PM

Mala,
If you can indeed authenticate the serial number as 836 when you look under the grip rail inside on the receiver, then that TSMG was one from the original shipment of guns seized in the government raid on the U.S.S. Eastside. These guns were to be smuggled to the IRA, but they didn't make it to their destination until after the government returned the TSMG's, and upon subsequent attempts, managed to make it to Ireland.

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#5 SecondAmend

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 04:29 PM

Mala,

It sounds like this is indeed one of the "Irish sword" Thompsons used by the "Merry Ploughboy" Irish Republican Army soldiers. May have been in the 110 or so that were recovered from long term hiding a cave, hence the receiver being in poor condition.

An interesting find, even if you decide not to purchase.
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#6 normandy123

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 05:04 PM

Since i only read this i am paasing it on for what it worth...
early Colts had the serial number hand scratched into the back of the barrel breach...if you can find a good light and a magnifier maybe it can be seen looking down the barrel from the ejector port? Tha is if it has the original colt barrel.
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#7 colt21a

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 12:23 AM

mala feed your inner beast ,and buy the darn thing.......who care's irish swird,polish saugage,or itrailian beef.......it's a thompson......wink!


and remember all my statement's are shot from the hip...take care,ron


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#8 Hawkeye_Joe

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 07:44 AM

QUOTE
who care's irish swird,polish saugage,or itrailian beef



laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
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#9 Mala

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 12:37 PM

Thanks for all the help and opinions, gentlemen.

I'll give it a serious consideration when I get to see it again next week.
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#10 Mala

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Posted 03 September 2004 - 07:11 AM

QUOTE (colt21a @ Aug 24 2004, 12:23 AM)
mala feed your inner beast ,and buy the darn thing.......who care's irish swird,polish saugage,or itrailian beef.......it's a thompson......wink!

And I did smile.gif It will take few weeks for paperwork to clear.
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#11 Hawkeye_Joe

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Posted 03 September 2004 - 07:36 AM

dry.gif A few weeks!!.. OOoooh Maaannnnnn..... mad.gif and I got months ahead of me.. sad.gif


Seriously .. glad ya got it .... biggrin.gif
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#12 Mala

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Posted 03 September 2004 - 08:03 AM

As I said before, this 1921 had lost most of its external finish but wood and internals turned out suprisingly nice looking. Didn't have time to look for that hidden s/n, but bolt appeared to have few "C" marks, which I take are for Colt.

After some haggling and trading I ended up paying about $1.5k for it. Did I already mention it also came with one very good condition WWII era Bridgeport L-drum. biggrin.gif
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#13 21 smoker

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Posted 03 September 2004 - 08:33 AM

Finland + Freedom= 1.5k Colt 21 tmsg!... ya gotta love that math,... wink.gif
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#14 TD.

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Posted 04 September 2004 - 11:43 AM

Mala,
Congratulations on your purchase. As Arthur pointed out earlier, you have purchased one very nice historical Thompson. Please post pictures for all to see. The number of surviving authenticated “Irish Swords” is few and far between. Each one that surfaces is a real treasure.

Question: Could you give the board a short overview of how much trouble (or not) it is to own machineguns in Finland? I would be interested to know the general requirements, fees and any conditions.

Again, congratulations on NO 836. You have purchased one great Thompson.
TD.

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#15 Zamm

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Posted 04 September 2004 - 12:08 PM

Mala,
I would be very interested also in what exactly
the rules are in finland for full auto ownership.
Man, you can't beat that price!! smile.gif
Best, Zamm
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#16 Mala

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Posted 06 September 2004 - 02:29 AM

Ok, this is a quick rundown of Finnish firearms laws and full-auto stuff especially.

The basic stuff has remained the same since 1930s. This means that since that each and every firearm needs a purchase permit from police and each gun will be issued a license which identifies both the gun and its lawful owner. There is nothing even remotely like 2nd Amendment here and a gun permit/license will only be issued if one can show a valid need/reason for a particular type of gun. This might sound draconian to most of you, but let’s first round up few facts:

- Today there are more than 2M registered guns in Finland (w/ 5M population)
- We have universal conscription (6/12 months), so about nine out of ten males get trained by the army to use (full-auto) firearms.
- About 10% of all adult population pays for an annual hunting license
- For past 30 years there have been annually 20-25 firearms related homicides and about one firearms related accidental death in the whole country
- Ownership of machine-guns, mortars etc is possible and there is no active movement to try to ban them or any other firearms.
- Carrying of firearms in public places is prohibited and there is no CCW (and really, no need for that).


We got a brand new set of firearms laws and statutes in 1998 (Phase I) and 2002 (phase II) and it includes all mandatory EU stuff (so this “EU banning all guns” is total BS). This new law was a very good thing as we Finns are firm believers of codified law. Law in itself defines different firearm types (rifle, pistol etc), operational modes (single shot, self-loading, full-auto) and defines what are valid reasons to issue a permit for a specific combination. Law also specifies a “pocket handgun” category, which is a revolver that fits flat inside a 140x190 mm box or other handgun that fits into a 130x180 mm box. Also specified is an “extra dangerous weapon” category, which includes RPGs, mortars, cannons, missile and rocket launchers, full-auto firearms and firearms which are made to look as something else.

For these “pocket handguns” and “extra-dangerous weapons” the only valid reasons to get a permit are Work, Collecting or Using in Movies/Theaters. In order to be able to Collecting as a reason, one needs to be authorized by the Minister of Interior as a “Gun Collector”. This includes some amount of paperwork and heavy background checks, but after that you don’t need to explain any other reason (hunting, sport shooting etc) for the local police. In order to get authorized one needs to provide:
- a more or less specific plan of what you intend to collect
- prove that you have sufficient technical and historical knowledge of those types of firearms you want to collect

Before this new law people got away with collecting plans like “firearms made after and before WWI”, but today new collectors need to specify it (at least initially) more strictly. Many people start collecting “Firearms used by the Finnish Army 1918-1945”. That still includes pretty much every European, Russo-Soviet, US and Japanese firearm of that era. First collecting plan will normally have restrictions to allowed gun types, so one has to first show some years of serious collecting before you are allowed to “expand” collecting to this “extra dangerous weapons” category. For me the road from the first handgun permit for sport shooting to a first machine gun for collecting took 10 years.


Rather strict gun laws since 1930s -> very low gun related crime rates -> no anti-gun movement whatsoever -> our army can sell surplus full-auto firearms directly to us collectors and they even hold an auction once a year. Run of the mill subguns (Sten, Suomi etc) go for $100-250, Maxim belt feds $250. Police also started having regular auctions of their surplus and confiscated firearms auctions this year. First one had four S&W 76s (not that common, so went for $1.5-2k).


But nothing is perfect. According to this new law police can now issue “limitations and rules” to new permits. In most places new full-auto permits get “Shooting only allowed with special permission” limitation. This means that one has to apply a permit to shoot the weapon. It costs $20 each time and takes 5 min – 2 days to process. But it isn’t the end of the world as last time I listed all the event I knew would be coming in the next 12 months and they were ok with it. Also gun stores can only get import permits to "extra dangerous weapons" if they can prove the end user, so it means they cannot just stock rooms full of new full-autos just in case somebody walks in with purchase permit and money in their pocket.

On the other hand, loaning of weapons is rather easy. If you have a permit for a gun, you can loan a gun of similar type – no paperwork needed. So if you own a belt-fed MG, you can loan any belt-fed. One can also apply for specific “Gun handling permit” if you need to handle, transport and shoot firearms in your line of business but don’t want or can’t have personal permits for the guns in question.

Prices. Normal purchase permit and gun license from local police, total $30. Extra dangerous weapon permit from Interior Ministry $65 and license from local police $15, total $80. I don’t remember how much it was for the approval as “Gun Collector”, but it was something like $100-200.

Pls ask.

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#17 Mala

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Posted 06 September 2004 - 03:20 AM

Forgot few things regarding licensing. Police here is not that greedy, so if you apply for more than one permit at the same time, rest are half the price. Purchase permits can also be had before you make any purchases – they are valid 12 months for collectors and 6 months for the rest. This means that when you find your gun, you just hand out the money and permit - purchase permit is also temporary license so you can take possession of the firearm immediately. In next 30 days you have to take it to your local police station, where they will re-check that the gun matches the paperwork and they will order the permanent license for you.

In “extra dangerous weapons” purchase permits pre-ordering is the norm, as their processing in the ministry can take months. First time I specified the gun caliber, type, maker and model, but this year they said that I’ve now “advanced“ to a state that I can just apply permits with the minimum requirements. So last time I applied just for 3x 7.62-.45 subguns plus 3x 7.62-8.00 mm MGs and they were happy with it. Used all those in last 10 months (Sten mk II, MP-40, Thompson 1921, Lahti L33/39, DT and SG43) so I'm happy too laugh.gif
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#18 Zamm

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Posted 06 September 2004 - 09:13 AM

Mala,
Thanks for your concise and informative reply!
Finnland seems to have it's act together concerning full auto's and collecting. I really
like the fact that your not constantly fighting anti-gun nut's who don't want anybody to own anything, much less
full auto's! smile.gif
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you guys get 5 months of daylight?
Plenty of shooting time...
Thanks again,
Zamm
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#19 TD.

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Posted 06 September 2004 - 10:40 PM

Thanks Mala,
I enjoyed your post on the Finnish gun laws.
One other quick question: Are deactivated machine guns regulated by the police or government?
I (and everyone else) can't wait to see the pictures of NO 836.
Thanks again,
TD.

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#20 Mala

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 12:18 AM

Zamm and TD,

In northern Lapland the sun remains over the horizon for almost two months, so you can shoot around the clock without NVGs. But then again, during the winter sun remains under the horizon (Polar night) for equal amount of time... Here is south the effect is smaller, during the Midsummer the amount of daylight is 20+ hours and during the New Year about 5 hours.

The new law also regulates what is a deactivated weapon. In order to get the weapon out of registry, it has to be deactivated by a gunsmith whom will also issue a deactivation certificate. This needs to be re-validated by the police. Weapons that were deactivated before the new law are not contraband even if they don't follow the current deactivation rules and guides (but selling them might be illeagal). I would say that our current rules are rather good, as basically the bolt head is cut and barrel is tapped. In most cases deactived guns still look, function and dissassemble like the real ones.

All this is due to the fact that the receiver is not a "gun part", but barrels and bolts are. On the other hand this means that each and every spare barrel and bolt needs to be registered to a particular gun after purchase. In theory, that is... There are still some amount of 1960-1980s "dekos" around. These typically have a small weld in the barrel and are easily reactivated. We collectors try to buy all of them to keep these in the hands of good guys and these can be also re-registered as guns.

After an addition to a law in last year it is now possible to register all contraband guns [there is still huge amount of WWII trophies around here]. You can keep the firearm if you can get the license for it, sell it in 3 months or allow police to auction it for you. Some really nice subguns have turned up this way.

Mala
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