Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Original Finishes On WWII Thompson's


  • Please log in to reply
20 replies to this topic

#1 Roger in AZ

Roger in AZ

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 24 posts
  • Location:Phoenix, Arizona

Posted 30 August 2003 - 11:14 PM

What were the original types of finishes that were on the Bridgeport and Savage 28 Thompsons of WWII?

Thanks

Roger
  • 0

#2 full auto 45

full auto 45

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 4606 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Looking over your shoulder right now
  • Interests:Thompson's, Any Machinegun, Harley's and scuba diving. In that order.

Posted 31 August 2003 - 08:54 AM

Plus all guns left the factory with a blued metal. Because of some of the older process, some appeared almost black. Looking like black oxide finish. The parkerized finish was done after a weapon came back to be reworked for what ever reason.
  • 0

#3 TSMGguy

TSMGguy

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2191 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West of the Pecos, Texas
  • Interests:Motorcycles, old airplanes, and guns.

Posted 31 August 2003 - 06:40 PM

This question surfaces from time to time.

All WWII Thompsons, both M1928A1 and M1 variations were factory blued using a process called Dulite. Period. Phosphated guns are rebuilds.

This doesn't necessarily detract from the gun, as the rebuilds were carred out at U.S arsenals and overseas by FN. Serials will seldom match on phosphated guns as no effort was made to keep the originally matched frames and receivers together through the rebuild process.

  • 0

#4 TSMGguy

TSMGguy

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2191 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West of the Pecos, Texas
  • Interests:Motorcycles, old airplanes, and guns.

Posted 01 September 2003 - 11:55 AM

For many years almost everyone believed that at least some WWII TSMGs were produced with parkerized finishes, pointing to the very high quality of the phosphate finish on various observed specimens. The evidence uncovered more recently does not bear this out. I had to change my mind about this question as well, in light of the more recent research.

You'll note that the phosphate on your gun (if that's what it is; the original dulite was applied over sandblasting and can resemble phosphating) probably extends to the barrel and compensator. Cutts turned out no phosphated compensators. They were furnished finished in blue and assembled into complete weapons by AOC or Savage. Same story with barrels. None were produced in phosphate during WWII. Each piece of each gun was made and then finished prior to final assembly, which is why you see so many small variations in finish on each piece of an original Dulite gun.

On your gun, the phosphating may be a very even in color on the comp, barrel, and receiver, as these componants were most likely not disassembled prior to refinishing.

Much the same thing has happened with WWII trench guns, most notably the Winchester M12. All were produced with a high polish commercial grade blued finish, but many were refinished after the war with phosphate finishes. As the refinishing process (part of a through overhaul) was done at US arsenals and was of very high quality (as with TSMGs), many of us naturally believed that the phosphate was original. Factory records uncovered in more recent research confirm otherwise.

I hope Nick or Frank will weigh in on this one. Take care!

  • 0

#5 Bisley45

Bisley45

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 602 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois ( Gun Owner's Hell )
  • Interests:Thompsons, 1911's, Collect & Shoot Colt Pistols and Revolvers, American Civil War, anything that shoots

Posted 01 September 2003 - 06:40 PM

I remember readin it the Thompson Colector news a report of ten Thompsons that were parkerized, this was tried out but they felt the parkeried finish was too rough and slowed moving parts. I remember Parkerizing a #4 Enfeld that had most of the black paint worn off, it was a bit rough until I soaked it in Break-Free and then it ran very nice, there were probly at least 10 that were parkerized at the factory but I think it's safe to say the predominince of Thompson's were blued.

BB
  • 0

#6 HK33K

HK33K

    New Member

  • Regular Group
  • 13 posts
  • Location:XANTH
  • Interests:Fast guns, fast cars, fast women!

Posted 02 September 2003 - 12:45 AM

Perhaps your gun was a left over that was not built in the wartime production, but was finished later(like some early WHs) and was sold to the PD? Just an idea that would explain why the upper and lower was parked while the rest was blued.
Pat
0-1-25
  • 0

#7 Roger in AZ

Roger in AZ

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 24 posts
  • Location:Phoenix, Arizona

Posted 06 September 2003 - 05:39 PM

PhilOhio,

Your Thompson sounds just like my Auto Ordnance Bridgeport 1928 AC Thompson. The only markings on my gun are as follows. On the top of the receiver is the Thompson Bullet logo, The right side of the receiver is marked Auto-Ordnance Corporation Bridgeport, Connecticut, USA, still on the right side of the receiver under the rear sight it is marked US Patents and bunch of numbers. The left side of the receiver is marked Thompson Submachine Gun Calibre .45 Automatic Cartridge and Model 1928 AC No. AO1357XX. The US was ground off as well as the 1 and restamped C. Both the upper receiver and lower receiver have matching serial numbers. There are pictures of this gun on the picture board.

Thanks

Roger




  • 0

#8 Roger in AZ

Roger in AZ

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 24 posts
  • Location:Phoenix, Arizona

Posted 06 September 2003 - 11:05 PM

Phil,

Thanks for you information. I am not sure what the military acceptance marks look like so I cannot tell for sure that the gun doesn't have them. Also what I meant by the picture board is the Thompson photo gallery on this board. Sorry I should have been more clear about that statement.

Thanks

Roger

  • 0

#9 fred

fred

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 99 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Baltimore, MD
  • Interests:My 1928AC, MGs in general, 1960's toys.

Posted 07 September 2003 - 03:53 PM

But were the letters filled in with white paint or not? Sorry- just couldn't resist...
  • 0

#10 The1930sRust

The1930sRust

    Respected Member and Board Donor

  • Moderator
  • 1939 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Confederate, Kentucky
  • Interests:Thompsons, obviously. Proud West Hurley 1928 and Savage M1 owner, cave explorer, and KSP trooper (retired). Also interested in 1920-1930 American history. I appreciate all Thompson models and their owners.

Posted 07 September 2003 - 05:47 PM

Oh no..............
  • 0

#11 LIONHART

LIONHART

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 2785 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Thompsons of course. All Manufactures and Models.

Posted 07 September 2003 - 08:12 PM

"Oh No" is right Chris! laugh.gif
  • 0

#12 koldt

koldt

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 61 posts
  • Location:Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Posted 07 September 2003 - 08:21 PM

Hey Chris, us white lettering guys gotta stick together. biggrin.gif
  • 0

#13 Grey Crow

Grey Crow

    RKI Member

  • Board Donor
  • 1077 posts
  • Location:North Central Pennsylvania
  • Interests:Thompson Submachine guns, computers, reptiles.

Posted 07 September 2003 - 09:37 PM

LOL! At times the white paint is found on the newer arms. But only if they are originals. laugh.gif
  • 0

#14 fred

fred

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 99 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Baltimore, MD
  • Interests:My 1928AC, MGs in general, 1960's toys.

Posted 08 September 2003 - 09:36 PM

Hey, Phil! I was bored Sunday and just had to stir the pot some. 30sRust's answer of "Oh no..." made me chuckle out loud all day!
  • 0

#15 PK.

PK.

    Technical Expert

  • Board Benefactor
  • 1567 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:CO, USA
  • Interests:Full time gunsmith who loves Thompsons, 35+ years experience.

Posted 09 September 2003 - 11:58 AM

Phil, you ought be working for some politician; what a spin doctor you would make.

LOL I think I need some of that therapy and will make an effort to get some soon.

Thanks for the tonic. biggrin.gif

  • 0

#16 Gunner

Gunner

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Donor
  • 282 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 September 2003 - 09:14 PM

While we're on the subject of white paint, how about REAL white paint that someone has put in serial numbes, logo, etc. Is there a good solvent? Thanks.
  • 0

#17 LIONHART

LIONHART

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 2785 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Thompsons of course. All Manufactures and Models.

Posted 10 September 2003 - 10:29 PM

Paint Thinner works out fine. I've used it on many Colt '21 Guns to remove the White Paint laugh.gif
  • 0

#18 LIONHART

LIONHART

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 2785 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Thompsons of course. All Manufactures and Models.

Posted 10 September 2003 - 10:52 PM

I wish I had a Colt Walker. That way I could sell it and buy a few Colt 21's!!!
  • 0

#19 Gunner

Gunner

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Donor
  • 282 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 September 2003 - 11:11 PM

Thanks, PhilOhio. I'll get out the wire brush I use to clean my BBQ grill!
  • 0

#20 PK.

PK.

    Technical Expert

  • Board Benefactor
  • 1567 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:CO, USA
  • Interests:Full time gunsmith who loves Thompsons, 35+ years experience.

Posted 11 September 2003 - 08:08 AM

If its China Marker, mineral spirits & an old tooth brush should take it right out. If its paint, acetone or MEK should dissolve it with no ill effect to the bluing. I would never use any mechanical scraping device; you will damage the finish in the lettering. No matter what it is, there is a solvent that will cut it.
  • 0