Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Tsmg Accessory Questions


  • Please log in to reply
21 replies to this topic

#1 snipershot1944

snipershot1944

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 330 posts
  • Location:VA
  • Interests:US, German Military WWI & WWII weapons, US, German, British sniper rifles. Virginia State Police items.

Posted 31 August 2004 - 07:17 PM

Hello folks

I'm trying to gather a few of the accessories needed for my pending Colt 1921A purchase. A friend recently picked up some nice items and has offered to share them with me. Neither of us are real Thompson experts, so I'd like to ask the board for a FMV estimate for the following:

Worchester Press first model "L" drum. With the AWB expiring, what can you expect to be the long term value of such a drum? I"d like to have a Colt drum, but the dollars won't quite allow that investment right now.

What appears to be a type A! canvas case. It is for a weapon with compensator, and has individual magazine pockets. It is unmarked.

Both came from a vet who had a bunch of UK type stuff, and we think that the drum and perhaps the case are lend-lease. I know that they are reproducing the cases, but this one appears to be quite old.

Any thoughts, opinions, or estimates of value would be greatly appreciated.

snipershot


  • 0

#2 Sig

Sig

    Respected Member and Board Benefactor

  • Moderator
  • 1634 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 August 2004 - 07:21 PM

Both depends on condition
Drum could be up to $1,000
Canvas up to $1,000.
Can't wait to see other opinions
michael
  • 0

#3 gijive

gijive

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2445 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Thompson SMG, WWII, Firearms in general.

Posted 31 August 2004 - 07:38 PM

I'd say about $1,200.00 for the drum and about $800.00 for the web case depending on condition. That works out to about the same dollars as Sig quoted. I would tend to think that the web case is not Lend-Lease. This type of case was sold with the earliest Colt Thompson orders. The British bought some Colt guns, but not until the late 1930s. Lend-Lease wasn't enacted until 1941. The only way the British would have gotten web cases with their Colt guns is if they ordered them directly from Auto-Ordnance prior to Lend-Lease.

Good luck with your new gun.
  • 0

#4 Grey Crow

Grey Crow

    RKI Member

  • Board Donor
  • 1077 posts
  • Location:North Central Pennsylvania
  • Interests:Thompson Submachine guns, computers, reptiles.

Posted 31 August 2004 - 09:18 PM

snipershot

I gave $1,179.00 for a Worcester Press drum about 85 - 90% condition, and it runs like a well tuned watch.

The general consensus with collectors is that the older drums will retain their value. However the AO, L drums may take a plunge in value.
  • 0

#5 snipershot1944

snipershot1944

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 330 posts
  • Location:VA
  • Interests:US, German Military WWI & WWII weapons, US, German, British sniper rifles. Virginia State Police items.

Posted 31 August 2004 - 09:23 PM

Jack-you are referring to West Hurley drums taking a drop, or others?
  • 0

#6 Arthur Fliegenheimer

Arthur Fliegenheimer

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3471 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 August 2004 - 09:45 PM

Are you sure that it is indeed a Worcester first pattern drum and not a Colt un-numbered, no "NO" drum? Tracy Hill really screwed the pooch in his book with the wrong cut lines under the wrong photos of Colt and Worcester L drums. He even muddies the waters with spot welds as identifiers.

Since WWII drums are commanding $1,000-$1,200 now, a Worcester first pattern (if it isn't a Colt), has to be worth $1,200-$1,500 without any dents and no rust on the black finish.

  • 0

#7 snipershot1944

snipershot1944

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 330 posts
  • Location:VA
  • Interests:US, German Military WWI & WWII weapons, US, German, British sniper rifles. Virginia State Police items.

Posted 31 August 2004 - 10:00 PM

Arthur, to be quite honest, no I'm not sure. It would certainly be great if it is a colt drum, even a last model. How do you tell the difference?

Thanks

Sniper
  • 0

#8 Murray

Murray

    New Zealand Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 404 posts
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:1921 and 1928 Thompsons, Luger pistols.

Posted 31 August 2004 - 10:24 PM

Sniper,
On the front of the Colt 1928 no number drum, on the label plate, the "C" of the word CAL lies between the C & H of SUBMACHINEGUN on the line above,

On the 1928 Worcester drum, the "C" of CAL lies directly below the "H" in MACHINEGUN above it.

Hope this is of some help,
Murray
rolleyes.gif
  • 0

#9 Arthur Fliegenheimer

Arthur Fliegenheimer

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3471 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 August 2004 - 10:25 PM

Sniper,
On the fron cover, look for the "C," in "CAL" and see if it is placed in between the "C" and "H" below the word "Submachine." On the back cover, look for the absence of a comma after "New York." Also, the Colt drum was issued with a nickel, or bright metal rotor, but it may have been switched out over the ensuing years. Faint spot, or tack, welds on the corners above the stamped info area would not constitute a Worcester drum, if the drum has the other markings.

  • 0

#10 Murray

Murray

    New Zealand Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 404 posts
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:1921 and 1928 Thompsons, Luger pistols.

Posted 31 August 2004 - 10:35 PM

Yep! ya right Arthur,
I forgot about the lack of a comma after New York, on the back plate of the 1928 Colt drum. rolleyes.gif
Regards,
Murray.
  • 0

#11 snipershot1944

snipershot1944

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 330 posts
  • Location:VA
  • Interests:US, German Military WWI & WWII weapons, US, German, British sniper rifles. Virginia State Police items.

Posted 31 August 2004 - 10:45 PM

The C in CAL is directly below the H.

The rotor is blued.

It looks like a Worchester based on your comments. I got a really good deal on it apparently.

The canvas pouch looks like a B type in the B1 pouch on page 194 of the American Thunder book.

Wonder what it would be worth?

Thanks for your help.

Murray, next time you are in Front Royal VA visiting John, let me know and I'll buy you a beer. You too
Arthur.

Sniper


  • 0

#12 Grey Crow

Grey Crow

    RKI Member

  • Board Donor
  • 1077 posts
  • Location:North Central Pennsylvania
  • Interests:Thompson Submachine guns, computers, reptiles.

Posted 01 September 2004 - 04:36 AM

Sniper,

I was referring to the WH drums.

The older drums might take a small dip in value, but their antiquity and or history will help stabilize them.
  • 0

#13 snipershot1944

snipershot1944

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 330 posts
  • Location:VA
  • Interests:US, German Military WWI & WWII weapons, US, German, British sniper rifles. Virginia State Police items.

Posted 04 September 2004 - 01:34 PM

Did the Worchester Press drums ever have a nickle rotor? I had my choice of drums from the source I mentioned earlier and the second drum is actually nicer, and has a nickle rotor.

Thanks

Sniper
  • 0

#14 Murray

Murray

    New Zealand Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 404 posts
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:1921 and 1928 Thompsons, Luger pistols.

Posted 04 September 2004 - 07:34 PM

Hey Sniper!
I did'nt know you were in Front Royal! Boy! does word travel fast.
Nice place but Jan thought she could hear banjos plunking in them there hills! huh.gif
We'll be back.
Kind wishes
Murray. blink.gif
  • 0

#15 snipershot1944

snipershot1944

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 330 posts
  • Location:VA
  • Interests:US, German Military WWI & WWII weapons, US, German, British sniper rifles. Virginia State Police items.

Posted 04 September 2004 - 07:39 PM

Murray

Actually, I live about 15 miles up the road in Winchester. Famous (or infamous) for having changed hands over 70 times in the Civil War, or as we Southerners call it, the War for Southern Independence.

And yes, you might have heard a few banjos as you crossed the mountain back to Northern Virginia.

Any thoughts on a nickle rotor in a Worchester Drum?

Sniper
  • 0

#16 Grey Crow

Grey Crow

    RKI Member

  • Board Donor
  • 1077 posts
  • Location:North Central Pennsylvania
  • Interests:Thompson Submachine guns, computers, reptiles.

Posted 04 September 2004 - 10:57 PM

A few photos of my Worcester drum.

user posted image

user posted image

user posted image

There are no other stampings on the case, or drain slots on the plates.
  • 0

#17 Murray

Murray

    New Zealand Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 404 posts
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:1921 and 1928 Thompsons, Luger pistols.

Posted 04 September 2004 - 11:44 PM

Jack,
If those three photos are all of the same drum, and I assume they are,
you have a mint Worcester 1928 drum on your hands.
I don't have one the same but I do have Doug Richardson's great book on drums and yours lines up exactly with Doug's photos and descriptions.
The rotor should be the same finish as the rest of the drum. black oxide, not nickle.
Looking at the inside of the drum. I very much doubt if it has ever been used!
It is great.
I'll swap it for a West Hurly "C" drum or.... Jan if you like. rolleyes.gif
Regards
Murray
  • 0

#18 Grey Crow

Grey Crow

    RKI Member

  • Board Donor
  • 1077 posts
  • Location:North Central Pennsylvania
  • Interests:Thompson Submachine guns, computers, reptiles.

Posted 04 September 2004 - 11:59 PM

Murray,

The photos are all of the same drum, and were taken this afternoon. I've put 50 rounds through it and it functioned flawlessly. After trying it once I oiled it and put it away. Haven't used it since, and have no plans of using it again.

There is a small amount of pitting on the right side on top where the bullets slide out, I feel that it may be to the use of corrosive primers and improper cleaning long ago.

I purchased it on GunBroker April 12, 2003 from a private owner in Waukesha, WI who owned a M1A1 and couldn't use it.

I'd love a "C", but will hang on to the L.

Thanks!!!
  • 0

#19 TSMG28

TSMG28

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 420 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 14 September 2004 - 11:51 AM

Sniper,

Sorry for the delayed reply to your inquiry, but I have been offline for a couple weeks. Murray and Arthur have already given you a good way to determine whether the drum is Worcester or Colt, but I will try to answer your question about the rotor.

The first model Worcester drum did have a nickel rotor (I have one in my collection). This is commonly referred to as a 4th generation drum (the first three being the Colt numbered, Colt No. with no number, and Colt without either a number or No., in that order). The most common Worcester is the 5th generation drum, which is the same as 4th gen but with a blued rotor. The last of the Worcester pre-WWII drums (6th gen) is the same as the 5th gen, but drain slots have been added to the front and back slide and, as I recall, the type face of the back slide (the NY address) was a bit larger and more centered on the slide.

I believe that covers the pre-WWII Worcester drum versions. There was of course the WWII version, but it was stamped W.P.S. CO. rather than Auto-Ordnance Corp and only had the winding instructions for the 1928 guns (WIND TO 9 CLICKS) on the cover slide.

There was one additional pre-WWII drum which Doug Richardson refers to as the Savage drum. Frank Iannamico indicates that these were made for a British contract in 1940 when Savage was building guns. Perhaps that is why Doug refers to it as the Savage drum. It was made by United Specialties and had the block U at the bottom of both the front and back slide, but the other slide markings appear to be indentical to the Colt drums, inlcuding the comma after N.Y. on the back slide and no drain slots.

Grey Crow, Nice looking Worcester you have there!

Roger
  • 0

#20 snipershot1944

snipershot1944

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 330 posts
  • Location:VA
  • Interests:US, German Military WWI & WWII weapons, US, German, British sniper rifles. Virginia State Police items.

Posted 14 September 2004 - 01:42 PM

Thanks for all of the information. Looks like I have a first Gen. Worcheter drum. Wow, great find to go with my Colt till I find a Colt drum.

Sniper
  • 0