40 replies to this topic

[Murray]

Well, that helps.
So, thus far we have seen "wavy"hyphen correct date with the MSCO stamp and now Gijive with an incorrect patent date with the MSCO stamp.

That make thing interesting
Now Ron
you have a blank mag with no MSCO like mine but you say you have a "wavy hyphen" correct date like mine and a staight hyphen correct date .

What is inside those last two?

Murray the mad mag man.

[Ron A]

The two repeat date mags (or what ever they are called) each are different.

One has the wavy line between the word "patented" and Aug. The font appears to be larger or deeper. It is stamped inside MSCO. I purchased this mag from a person who also sold me the unmarked mag. was advised came from Eastern PD?

The second mag has the "-" and is also stamped MSCO inside. The type not be a deep and have a smaller font. I purchased this mag with a selection of British mags. The holes had been leaded.

[John Jr]

I bought some patent dated magazines this week and I too have one that has this MSCO thingy on it. It has the August 20 date, then the August 24 date and then the Jan 11 date.

I also have the one with the Aug 24 twice, its not marked MSCO inside.

Are the MSCO ones rare or is that just another colt hoax?

[dalbert]

The rare, patent date markings prototype magazine has the following characteristics that can help to identify it:

The dash between "Patented" and "Aug..." is slightly slanted upwards to the right. The dash appears between the "9" and the "2" in "1920" on the line below it. "MSCO" is stamped on the inside of the bottom back of the magazine housing. If you look at a normal "AUG 24/24" patent date magazine, the dash appears directly above the "2" in "1920." Also, the prototype magazine has deeper engraving or stamping, whatever the method of marking is that was used. I'm not sure if it is a stamping, or an engraving. This is a point on which I have seen some variation of opinion.

I have corresponded with Murray Willis on this subject, and he informed me that since he found his prototype magazine, that he has learned of about 10-12 of them that exist in collector's hands at this time. I'm sure more are out there. I have 2 of them. I got one directly from The Sportsman's Guide, and the other from an individual who probably purchased it from the Sportsman's Guide as well.

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[John Jr]

Yup, looks like another one. Not so rare after all. Dern, I was hoping this thing was worth something and was going to sell it. What do you think these things are worth?

[TD.]

John,
I really don't need any more Colt magazines but since I know it bothers you to own anything Colt related, I will gladly give you a couple of bucks for your Colt magazines. Again, I don' t need them, but I hate to see you fret about owning a product associated with Colt. Do you take PayPal

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

After looking up info on DR's Colt Navy buttstocks, I found his "prototype mag"ad, circa 1991:

"Patent Date Markings Prototype Magazine Pictured On Pages 38 & 39 Of My Book On Box Mags, Original & Probably The Only One. $250."

Oooops! This may be the only piece of Colt TSMG paraphernalia that has actually receded in value over time.

[TSMG28]

John Jr.,

They are probably worth the same as any other patent dated mag. The prices seem to vary from $35 to $125, depending on condition and good old supply and demand.

As has already been concluded in this thread, this is not a prototype mag as originally thought, but rather one of the four variations of "Colt" XX mags (ignoring Shot mags).

Roger

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Yeah. The guy who bought DR's "prototype" mag for $250 is only out $200? I am beginning to wonder about the XX rd blank mags now. There sure seem to be fewer of those than the repeat date mags, whether they have the positioning of the holes of the XXXrd mags or of the early XXrd ones.

[M-2 CARBINE]

Hello

Add another one to the list i have a mag marked the same way as murray

[M-2 CARBINE]

[rpbcps]

John Jr.,

They are probably worth the same as any other patent dated mag. The prices seem to vary from $35 to $125, depending on condition and good old supply and demand.

As has already been concluded in this thread, this is not a prototype mag as originally thought, but rather one of the four variations of "Colt" XX mags (ignoring Shot mags).

Roger

 

This is another post which  thought worth 'bringing back to life' again.

 

 

It is my belief, after reading through many books on the subject and also in the pinned post 'Thompson Box And Drum Magazine Guide', that the MSCO marked Patent Date XX magazines were 'Maguire era' magazines manufactured after Russell Maguire took control of Auto Ordnance Corporation in July 1939. So I have always counted those as post Colt era magazines, please correct me if I am wrong?

 

New information does come to light now and again, and I appreciate that 14 years has lapsed since the last post, so I am just asking for clarification, as I have see some confusion arising with some collectors, on what exactly is a Colt era magazine. 

 

Rogers post quoted mentions "four variations of "Colt" XX mags" , so I am curios if these include the MSCO marked patent date XX  magazines discussed in the post or of there are more version to look for, than I thought?   

 

Stay safe

 

Richard

[john]

Okay, I recall this string as well as another similar as I have one of these mags myself.
I believe David Albert ran a long string that uncovered many like this but not all with the wavy hyphen (mine has this) and can't recall details on the Colin either, so now I gotta go dig the thing out and take more pics.....
Mine is unissued and never liaded, in almost perfect shape and as I recall the others were in many different states from near new to well-uaed.
Seems to me that over a dozen were accounted for, but still that's a very small number.
If I can't find my old catch of pics I'll take some new ones.
Anyone else recall the discussion?

[john]

Okay, I recall this string as well as another similar as I have one of these mags myself.
I believe David Albert ran a long string that uncovered several like this but not all with the wavy hyphen (mine has this) and can't recall details on the Colon either, so now I gotta go dig the thing out and take more pics.....
Mine is unissued and never liaded, in almost perfect shape and as I recall the others were in many different states from near new to well-uaed.
Seems to me that over a dozen were accounted for, but still that's a very small number.
If I can't find my old cache of pics I'll take some new ones.
Anyone else recall the discussion?

Edited by john, 26 July 2020 - 07:38 PM.

[TSMG28]

Richard,

 

When I posted the information about "Colt" era mags in 2005, I echoed the common description at the time that all Patent Date mags were often referred to as Colt era.  As we know now, that is not the best way to describe the different versions of the XX mags.  There are only two standard versions of the XX mag that I would now refer to as Colt era.  Those are the ones made by John's Machine and Stamping Co. for Auto-Ordnance.  The first one was blank, and the second is the one we all refer to as Patent Date.  There are also three Colt era versions of the shot magazine - blank, FOR SHOT CARTRIDGES, and FOR 18 SHOT CARTRIDGES.

 

The magazines made by Mitchell Stamping Company, which include both the 24/24 version and the incorrect 20/24 version, are better described either as Maguire era or WWII (1939 or later).  The Mitchell-made mags had MSCO stamped on the inside of the backstrap at the bottom.  The 24/24 version is the one with the upswept hyphen on the top line of the marking. 

 

So you are correct that the MSCO magazines are not Colt era.  Apologies for the confusion.

 

Roger

Edited by TSMG28, 26 July 2020 - 08:44 PM.

[rpbcps]

John / Roger,

thank you for your replies and that information, which confirmed my understanding of the topic, but I know there were many people who were still confused about 'Patent Date' magazines. Hence, I thought that this was a good platform, demonstrating how new information acquired by researchers over the years, changes what was once a common belief.

 

After reading the references in the earlier posts, last night I read again the pages on the 'Patent Date' magazines in Doug Richardson's book on Box magazines, published in 1995, and can see how knowledge on the subject has developed over the last 25 years.  One thing I really enjoy about this hobby, some may call it an addiction, is how new information is discovered which changes perceptions and develops knowledge.

 

To all those who have wrote and contributed to the many books on the subject, and many topics posted on this board, thank you all for your time and effort in continuing to provide me knowledge on the subject.

 

Stay safe

Richard

[TD.]

"The magazines made by Mitchell Stamping Company, which include both the 24/24 version and the incorrect 20/24 version, are better described either as Maguire era or WWII (1939 or later).  The Mitchell-made mags had MSCO stamped on the inside of the backstrap at the bottom.  The 24/24 version is the one with the upswept hyphen on the top line of the marking." 

 

I will certainly defer to Roger on drums and magazines but wish to ask a follow-up question based on the above statement. Russell Maguire took over AOC in July 1939. There were still approximately 4500 - 4700 Colt's still in inventory in 1939. Of these Colt's, we know 951 went to the US military, 3000 to the French and 500 to the Swedes. Given these three large orders, would the MSCO marked magazines have been initially ordered and manufactured for the buyers of these sales. If so, would this not make the MSCO magazines Colt era, at least for many of the later Colt's sold?    

[rpbcps]

Tom,

for my two-penneth, I'll light a fuse and stand back.... I would say, if they were produced after Maguire took over AOC, then they are Maguire era, regardless of the manufacturer of the Thompsons that they were sold with.

 

Stay safe

 

Richard

[TSMG28]

Tom,

My two pence agrees with Richard. I believe we should focus on when the items were made rather than what guns they may have been shipped with.

To me, the Colt era extends up to when Maguire took over AOC. From there forward, the focus was on WWII customers, so you can call it either the Maguire era or WWII era.

FWIW...

Roger

[TD.]

Okay. I can agree they are Maguire era magazines based on the criteria the control over Auto-Ordnance Corporation changed in July 1939 when Russell Maguire assumed control. However, I do believe these Maguire era magazines are correct for all of the Colt's sold after July 1939. I know the number of Colt's sold after July 1939 is small, other than the three large orders I mentioned in my previous post. Of course, there may be long time Colt's owners that ordered new magazines from AOC after Maguire assumed control. While I don't know for sure, I would bet the FBI ordered a number of new magazines every year as part of their firearms and training budget. Would these "new" magazines be correct for their Colt's? 

 

I do like the discussion