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Awb And Gun Laws Questions


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#1 wolfer113

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Posted 13 September 2004 - 11:46 PM

OK......AWB is over...as far as building semi auto rifles such as ak's fal's etc..where do we stand with the laws now? this right here is throwing me off...." The prohibition on assembly of non-sporting shotguns and semiautomatic rifles from imported parts as provided under 18 U.S.C. § 922® and 27 CFR § 478.39 still applies." i'm NO good at reading these laws....looks like to me they give you the right in one sentence and take it away in the next....if we can have flash hiders and bayonet lugs and adjustable stocks etc etc on our rifles now.....why can't we just simply build a gun from a parts kit on a legal semi receiver? we are still stuck with the stupid compliant parts list in doing so correct? with that the case its gonna be hard to build a parts kit gun and have flash hiders and adjustable stocks etc etc because of having to have the required number of US made parts. seems to me anyways? the stocks and muzzle brakes/fake hiders was a big number of the USA made parts avalible.....please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong on any of this.....or whatever.....theres still WAY to MANY gun restrictions.....the way i see it there should be NFA and NON NFA...Period...what damn differance does it make where it comes from! why in the hell do we have these damn import laws that locks most of OUR military history out of OUR country...the stuff WE PAID FOR...we should have the right to get it back!
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#2 Bill in VA

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 06:33 AM

Ok...
There are two (actually three) laws at work in your question....922®, 922(v), and 922(w). We'll lump 922(v) and (w) together, since these are the "assault weapon" ban (and "high capacity" magazine ban) that died yesterday.


The ban that died was only the ban that prohibited "assault weapons" and "high capacity" magazines (18USC CH 44 922(v) and (w), respectively.) 922(v) prohibited the assembly, possession, and transfer of "assault weapons" to the general public. As defined by 18USC CH 44 921(a)(30) a "semiautomatic assault rifle" had the ability to accept a detachable magazine, plus at least two "evil features" (i.e., pistol grip, folding/telescopic stock, bayonet lug, flash hider, grenade launcher, or threaded muzzle to accept flash hider.) This is why Bushmaster, for example, offered the AR15 without nothing but a pistol grip...no bayonet lug, flash hider, tele-stock, etc... With only one "evil featire" it was an "assault rifle" per 921(a)(30). Since 922(v) is dead, you can now restore your AR15 to look like it should...bayonet lug and bird cage flash hider. Moreover, you can also possess and transfer "high capacity" (greater-than-ten-round magazines, AKA standard capacity magazines.) Moreover, manufacturers can now manufacture these firearms and magazines for sale to the general public. (FWIW, 921(a)(30) is also a moot point now...there is no longer any such thing under federal law as an "assault weapon." Can't effectively ban something that doesn't exist!)

The other law at work here is 922® 922® prohibits the manufacture and transfer (but not possession) of imported "non-sporting" semiautomatic firearms. What this means is that certain rifles cannot be imported. (ex. foriegn-made semiautomatic AK47s, Uzis, Steyr AUGs, Galils, etc...) However, domestically-made copies of these rifles can be bought/sold, etc... By reducing the number of foreign-made parts in your AK it no longer qualifies as a foriegn-made semiautomatic firearm...it becomes a domestically-made firearm and thus, isn't prohibited. (Thus, the whole rationale behind a US parts count.)

An example: The SAR series of AKs sold by Century Arms a few years ago had enough US-made parts in it that it did not fall under the purview of 922®. As such, it was not considered a foreign-made rifle. With that in mind, the rifle could have a bayonet lug, folding stock, etc... except for one thing: 922(v) prohibited folding stocks and bayonet lugs. Now that 922(v) is dead, you can put those parts back on your AK/SAR.

Bottom line, you still need to lower the foreign parts count which means you cannot assemble an AK or FAl using a foriegn parts kit...you have to change out some of the foriegn parts for US parts.

Edited by Bill in VA, 14 September 2004 - 06:37 AM.

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#3 wolfer113

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 10:11 AM

Thanks Bill....Many Thanks......just wanted to know i was right on that....ALOT of people are thinking that they can just throw anything together now when in fact they still have to have the magical number of USA made parts......i bet alot of folks are gonna be getting in hot water over that....The AWB website and others needs to make this clear...the way the media and kerry etc is going on and on about how anyone can get anything now and theres no laws reguarding it is leading people to trouble....in which i'm afraid will spur another BAN....people need to be educated so it don't come back to bite us....i can't wait to see what the market does..what all and for how much....its gonna be fun...but i think we need to make the best of it because i'm afraid it'll be back and worse...but i'll tell you one thing...there will be NO mr and mrs america turn it all in at my place....that'll be war
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#4 LIONHART

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 02:04 PM

Bill is correct on all points. In order to install Flash Hiders/Folding Stocks and Bayonet Lugs to an imported Rifle, such as a SAR-1, the individual is required to have a specific number of US Parts to make the modification legal. The SAR as they were imported (And the BEST AK type Rifle imported as to my opinion) were modified in the States to meet ATF requirements. The Pistol Grip was switched to one made in the US, as was the Gas Piston, and FCG. In order to install the four other items, Lug, Hider, Folder, and Threaded Muzzle, one would have to install US Manufactured Upper and Lower Handguards, and a US Made Muzzle Device, which in this instance, can be a Flash Hider, but would have to have been made in the States. Keep in mind too, that even though there are numerous American Made AK Parts out there, an individual needs to use what the ATF classifies as Compliant Parts. This would include the FCG (And in reference to an AK, this adds Three US Parts) The Upper/Lower Handguards count as 1 set of parts, as do the Pistol Grip and Stock. Other Parts would count as Compliant Parts, but aren't available in the Marklet Place at this time. Indeed, one can convert even a Mak90 over to Pre-Ban status, by installing the specific number of required parts to make the Firearm legal under current Legislation.
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#5 TommyGunner

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 02:34 PM

Wolfer,

Hope this helps....Click Here

Lionhart...I beleive the 2pc forend handgard is counted as only one part. sad.gif Please see the letter.

Good Luck!
Damon
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#6 LIONHART

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 02:47 PM

Damon, correction to my intial post was made to relect the change. Also, the Grip by itself is a seperate Part, as is the Stock. Handguards count as one. smile.gif
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#7 john

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 04:59 PM

How about this:
I have a MAADI AK-47 imported by PARS Intl. (Louisville KY) in late 94. It is a post-ban(very low s/n) and came with an ugly thumbhole stock. I have a Choate black plastic skeleton stock on it now, but I'd like to slap on a nice set of original Egyptian wood, pistol grip and all.

The gun has a bare unthreaded muzzle and ground-off bayo lug. I'm not sure how these were imported but all the parts inside look like a friends original MAADI pre-ban (imported by Steyr)....Egyptian made!

SO, the question: huh.gif

Do I need to add American made parts to a gun that was imported already assembled to make it "compliant" so I can add the wood OR since it was imported as a gun (instead of a parts kit) can I simply slap the wood to it and call 'er done??

It's all sooooo confusing!!! blink.gif

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#8 LIONHART

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 05:20 PM

HA! John, I had owned five of those, and All were recalled by the ATFE. I received quite a threading letter in the mail back in 1994. Apparently, there was a quantity that were imported that had Full Auto Receivers, as were the case with the ones I possessed. I was informed to immediately return the five to the importer. I pretty much stripped them naked, and received five back.

In answer to your question. You can install a Foreign set of Wood, but you will need an American manufactured Grip. If you choose a Laminate set of Wood, go with a K-Var Plum Grip. You will also need to install a FCG. (Fire Control Group) I would suggest the TAPCO G2. These are the BEST by far. I would recommend the Double Trigger Model, but you will need to make a simple cut into your Receiver to accommodate this. Of course, the TAPCO G2 is available in a Single Trigger. You may want to obtain a different Shepherds Hook. I use the Bulgarian Model, which is simpler to install, and these are available through Global Trades.
Other than the Grip, and FCG, you will also have to use a new Gas Piston. K-Var has the best ones available. Stainless Steel, and you could do the work yourself, or consult with a Smith to install it.

You may Thread your Barrel. I picked up my set through Brownells for $60.00, BUT, I do know an individual who rents a kit out for $16.00. Very easy to do. You will also need the Front Sight Plunger and Spring. All of which is available through K-Var. You can also install a Bayonet Lug, but keep in mind that the holes for the Pins will need to be drilled. A simpler method of adding Weld to the Lug may work out just fine. You will also need to use a US Muzzle Device. Whether it be a Brake, or a Hider. Please note though, if you intend to have a Lug, you will need to either substitute the Wood furniture for US Made, or use US Made Magazine Floor Plates, and Followers. If you add an "EVIL" feature, you have to make up with more US Compliant Parts.

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#9 TommyGunner

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 05:31 PM

John,

Yes it can be confusing untill you get the hang of it. Your MAADI with the thumbhole stock would need to have 10 or less imported parts on it to convert it to a military stock configuration. If you just slap the egyptian wood on it...it would be in violation of 922r. You would have to buy and install the correct number of US made parts to get the count below 11 including the new imported stockset you wish to put on it. A imported stock set is considered 3 imported parts. If you look at the list on the link I posted before...you cannot have more than 10 of the imported parts on your gun to militarize the furniture.

QUOTE
Keep in mind too, that even though there are numerous American Made AK Parts out there, an individual needs to use what the ATF classifies as Compliant Parts.


This brings up a very interesting point. You need to know what the ATF considers a compliance part. For example "trunion" is on the list. A normal fixed pistol grip stock...I think...has one trunion on the gun (folders have 2)...the barrel trunion. However I have seen sources (the old ak-47.net website for one) that would call a rear upper tang a trunion. What matters here is what the ATFE considers a trunion so you could figure the neccissary parts count. It would be valuable information to have. If anyone has or knows where to find this information please share with us! Once you have the correct amount of US parts on the gun...then you can add a US muzzle attachment, bayo, underfolder...etc.

This is a confusing law but I beleive it was put in place to make us spend money in the good ol USA instead of sending it overseas. Also makes the gun a little more expensive and a bit of a hassle to put together...perhaps to discourage and confuse the unwitting.

I am not a lawer and my words are only the rantings of a lunatic...FWIW

Hope this all helps
Damon
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#10 TommyGunner

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 05:37 PM

Devlin,

QUOTE
You will also need to use a US Muzzle Device. Whether it be a Brake, or a Hider. Please note though, if you intend to have a Lug, you will need to either substitute the Wood furniture for US Made, or use US Made Magazine Floor Plates, and Followers. If you add an "EVIL" feature, you have to make up with more US Compliant Parts.
blink.gif

Please explain. I am under the...uh...assumption that once you have the parts count up...that you can install as many foreign parts as you like...that are not on the list. That is to say...once you put the proper amount of US parts on the gun...It is considered US made and as a US made gun...with the awb expired...you can add the features unfettered as long as you do not screw up your parts count in the process.

Please let us know.

Damon

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#11 LIONHART

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 07:33 PM

First off, I do have a list somewhere of what the ATF does consider a Compliant Part for an AK. I will post this information later. But as I said, there are numerous AK Parts manufactured in the US, that don't count as a Compliant Part. As far as a Trunion, the Front Trunion, and Rear Trunion IF made in the US, would count as a Compliant Part. On the Fixed Stocked AK Models, it's pretty much a Tang, but it is a Trunion.Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any sources for US Trunions. But they DO count as Compliant Parts.

Damon, if JOHN just wanted to add a Foreign Set of Wood he would then need to install:

US-Pistol Grip.....1-Part
US-FCG.............3-Parts
US Gas Piston...1-Part

Just as Century used in their SAR-1 Rifles to make legal to sell with a Pistol Grip. Now, if you want to add another EVIL feature(s), an individual would therefor need additional US Part(s). Such as Stock (1 US Part), Handguards, (1 US Part) and Muzzle Device (1 US Part) That's another three parts. Of course, you could use Magazine Followers and Floor Plates, and the ATFE does consider these to be TWO separate Parts. Of course exceeding the required minimum isn't a bad idea either..This has always been my understanding of the situation.

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#12 TD.

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 07:40 PM

Just out of curiosity, after a gun is completed and sold, how would owner number two or three have any idea what is a foreign part or US part? It would seem to me that it would be very easy to purchase a used weapon that is in violation of the law - and not even know it!
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#13 Bill in VA

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 07:42 PM

Foreign parts count has be 10 or less, per 178.39 (now 478.39) so you cna't just keep adding foreign parts.
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#14 LIONHART

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 09:24 PM

No mention of AK's, but should prove useful. Did for me with my FAL's! smile.gif

http://www.brownells...x?p=0&t=1&i=388
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#15 TommyGunner

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 09:36 PM

Devlin,

Man oh man...now I am totally confused! blink.gif I deffer to your superior knowledge on the subject and beg of you to help me get what I am obvously missing. You said:

QUOTE
Damon, if JOHN just wanted to add a Foreign Set of Wood he would then need to install:

US-Pistol Grip.....1-Part
US-FCG.............3-Parts
US Gas Piston...1-Part


I got a different figure. If his maadi is 100% imported with a thumbhole...to convert it to imported military wood (except grip)...and had the us parts added (4 of them) that you listed below. My take is taht it would have 11 foreign parts and be in violation of 922r. The gun would still have imported:

receiver
barrel
front trunion
rear trunion
bolt
bolt carrier
buttstock
forearms/handguards
magazine bodies
followers
floorplates

In regard to the magazine, the link you provided above said:
QUOTE
There is another way to comply with the law that is a little less expensive but it has one drawback. You can assemble the rifle using the first five parts listed and substitute a U.S.-made magazine floorplate and magazine follower instead of using the U.S.-made hammer and sear. This will be less expensive but technically, the rifle would only be legal as long as the magazine remained inserted into the magazine well. For some folks, this does not present a problem. 


I take this to say that the magazine must be counted in the parts count and omission of the mag would constitute 3 foreign parts.

You also said:
QUOTE
Now, if you want to add another EVIL feature(s), an individual would therefor need additional US Part(s).


I no gets it either! Please help! lets say the maadi was up to par with the parts count and he wanted to add a bayonet lug as an additonal evil feature...why would he need to add another us part? Neither is on the list. Do you have any literature to support this so I can edumacate myself?

TD: I beleive it is illegal to manufacture the weapon without the US parts count...possessing one is not a crime...but the weapon may be surrenderable.

Respectfully,
Damon
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#16 John Jr

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 09:48 PM

Bill in Va is one of the longest know members of this board. He is also one of the most knowledgeable people you can find in regards to these types of questions. I know you are not an attorney, Bill, but you are a huge asset to this board and we should all be thankful you are here and contribute your knowledge on a regular basis.

Take care...

Jr
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#17 wolfer113

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 09:50 PM

What year did the import ban come into effect anyways? was it 1986? is there a list of the guns that can't be imported or a list that can be imported? anyone know the details on that deal?

Reason i ask is i have an L1A1 that was imported from the S.A.F in Lithgow Australia...i was told there was only158 of these rifles that made it to the USA....and according to my serial number the gun was built in 1985 and is what we always use to call preban of course...anyone sharp on FALS and L1A1 that knows anything about this please get with me on it...from what i understand originally this gun "was" identical to the Australian L1A1 service rifles except having the semi-auto mods to receiver and bolt for the BATF and had a lacquer finish instead of the normal creosote soaking for the wood funiture.
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#18 LIONHART

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 10:07 PM

Damon, you mentioned in your list "Bolt Carrier". Keep in mind, that on my list I included Gas Piston, which would modify the Carrier to be US Compliant. In reference to the Magazine Parts. I don't like the idea of using the Magazine Followers and Floor Plates. Even though these count as two US Parts, I always install other compliant Parts, as I do not want to mix Magazines up, nor do I want the confusion of which Magazine is legal, and which is not. However, some folks go that route, as it is a cheaper alternative. Not the best way, but cheaper, nonetheless. I also made mention of five Parts, not 4.

" no gets it either! Please help! lets say the Maadi was up to par with the parts count and he wanted to add a bayonet lug as an additional evil feature...why would he need to add another us part? Neither is on the list. Do you have any literature to support this so I can edumacate myself?"

Damon, the Maadi was imported after 1989. Keep in mind that these could not be imported with those features (Bayonet Lug, Threaded Muzzle, Pistol Grip). One is working around, rather complying, by installing additional US Parts.

Springfield Armory had the same problem as well prior to 1994. They imported the SAR4800 Series of FAL Rifles, but added additional Parts to justify the necessary Parts count. Even though the 1994 Ban is effectively dead, you still have to comply with Section 922.

Now, I gave a list of the following: 1) Grip, 2) Piston, 3) FCG, This is what Century needed to install on their SAR-1 Rifles, since these were imported from Romania. By Century adding those above Parts, they were Legal to sell. But, since the Ban is gone, you can have a Threaded Muzzle with a US Brake (As ATF Defined a Muzzle Attachment a US Compliant Part) and a Bayonet Lug. But in order to have a Lug, you must also install another US Part.
So, the list would then be:

(1)-Grip (2) Gas Piston (3) Grip (4)FCG, (5) US Muzzle Device (6) Handguards. That would be Nine Compliant Parts, and one could use a Foreign made Stock. Whether a Folder or not.

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#19 TommyGunner

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 10:14 PM

Thanks Lionhart!

Geez what a pain in the ass!

Damon
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#20 LIONHART

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 10:15 PM

TD, most Manufactures will mark their Parts with US.
Wolfer, the law was passed in 1989. If your Inch Pattern FAL was imported prior to that, than it would be a "Pre-89" Gun. Also, there should be an Import Marking somewhere, as to who imported the Rifle.

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