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From Russia With Love


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#1 deerslayer

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 06:11 PM

Gunsamerica has a listing for WW2 drums. Same outfit as selling the 28 demills. Would these be leagal to import? $520

http://www.gunsameri...s/976510365.htm
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#2 LIONHART

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 06:34 PM

I don't see how they could be. At least I wouldn't take that chance...
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#3 catnipman

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 06:49 PM

Could be just a plain out and out scam too. Payment via only Western Union or bank wire transfer is a big time red flag for fraudulent auctions. Both ebay and Western Union themselves recommend that Western Union *NOT* be used for auctions.
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#4 TD.

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 08:49 PM

Catnipman is on target. Requesting payment by Western Union is very suspect. I would be very careful with this. If interested, I would ask for a local pick-up option with cash in hand. Perhaps a board member will live nearby and can check things out.
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#5 Ron A

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 11:26 PM

The only time I lost money was when the seller requested "Western Union"
I would pass...
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#6 OldFalGuy

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 12:03 AM

Don't be Daniel in the lion's den- the outcome could be different- Pass
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#7 SecondAmend

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 06:41 AM

From what has been posted regarding the M1A1 kits, I don't see how it could be legal for the guy in Bellarus (or wherever) to ship directly to a buyer in the U.S. who does not first have the authorization to receive.

Pass.
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#8 Sgt

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 01:48 PM

I agree with 2nd admend. on that one. Unless the laws have been changed, that deal could only be trouble.
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#9 Deputy 89C6

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 02:59 PM

I think the seller name "RusCon" say's it all.

Steve
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#10 deerslayer

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 10:30 PM

Got an email back from Oleg tonight with a bunch of nice pictures of drums, new condition looking, greasy crosby and U marked auto ordnance drums. (I'm kind of interested in a WPS marked one)
I do kind of agree with the consensus that its probably a risky thing to send money to them and I'm probably not going to do it, but I am not sure by the responces, would it be legal to have it shipped here?
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#11 philasteen

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 11:18 PM

It would be a felony for you to try to import it without paperwork. Is buying this drum worth giving up your gun ownership privileges forever?
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#12 deerslayer

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 07:08 AM

That's what I wanted to hear (or didn't). Temptation gone. Thanks Philasteen!

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#13 Chopper28

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 12:16 PM

Deerslayer,
Could you post some of the pics just out of curiosity. It would be nice to see some new WWII drums.
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#14 Lancer

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 01:14 PM

QUOTE (hardrede @ Oct 1 2004, 09:43 AM)
I have talked to a Mr. Jacobi at DOS. It is a 10 year felony-$1,000,000 fine to import these things. I faxed him the advertisement and Defense Trade Controls is following up on this.

Stay away, FAR, FAR, AWAY!!!!

hardrede,
I must say I have a hard time understanding you. You seem to have extensive knowledge of the import laws concerning guns and gun parts. You go way out of your way to educate and warn all of us on the gun boards about the pit falls of importing items that may not be legal. I for one appreciate your efforts in this regard.

This is the part I don't get. What do you think the DOS is going to do with this info that you reported to them? They have no jurisdiction over the seller in Russia. Most likely nothing will happen to him. However, if some poor slob over here is stupid enough to buy something like this and get caught as a result of your reporting this you may have potentially destroyed this persons life. I know that "the law is the law" but this is a victimless crime. Why go out of your way to create life changing problems for someone who may have made an innocent stupid mistake?

My .02
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#15 Bob B

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 04:22 PM

Lancer,
You've put into words what perhaps many of us were thinking. To urge caution and point out the (il)legalities is one thing - to set in motion a powerful and oftentimes mindlessly punitive machine is quite another. The GunsAmerica ad will doubtless attract buyers who don't frequent this board and won't have the benefit of hardrede's counsel. Assuming the offering isn't a complete scam (and that's a big if), the first clue some of them may get that anything is amiss might be the service of a search warrant at three in the morning, confiscation of the drum(s) together with anything else that might not be completely "by the book", and no end of legal hassles, lawyers fees, etc. That seems like a lot of consequences just to make a point, particularly when the matter could have been resolved with an email to GunsAmerica alerting them to the potential illegality of importing the advertised items. I'm sure they would have pulled the ad.

In light of what now may already be in motion, that may be the only way to keep a bunch of clueless but otherwise innocent people from being ground up in the gears.
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#16 philasteen

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 11:32 PM

QUOTE (hardrede @ Oct 1 2004, 08:32 PM)
I suspect that at most they will round up the parts here like they did with Interordnance and Coles Distributing. It will not change anyone's life to have to give up an illegal part or weapon that DTC or whomever requests.

I don't know what the basis for your suspicion is. People can and are prosecuted for these type of offenses. At the very least the "innocent" victims who ordered these drums are going to rack up $1,000s in legal fees.
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#17 Bob B

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 12:12 AM

Hope you don't think I'm looking for an argument hardrede - more like just an honest exchange of ideas.

I'm all for "self-policing", but you'd have to explain to me how initiating Federal action at that level is even remotely similar to blowing the whistle on some nut case you knew was about to shoot up a school. Do such incidents make it bad for all the rest of us? Sure they do, but nothing anyone says or does will change that. Although I would want to know I'd done everything I could to keep someone from stumbling into serious trouble, I'd think long and hard before involving the Federal government, and would do so only if lives were potentially at risk. Now that I think of it, doesn't the NRA have a sort of "self-policing" office to address situations such as this effectively but with the least amount of backlash?

All of us have seen examples of government over-reaction where some poor slob winds up being treated like one of the Dillinger gang, and I know from (almost) personal experience what a life-changing experience that can be. In my younger days I used to fly out of a small private airport in upstate New York that was owned by an old guy who back in the '20s had the bad luck to have been a passenger in a small plane that happened to have been used on a DIFFERENT occasion to fly cases of whiskey in from Canada. The plane was seized based on its identification number and he was arrested but later released with no charges filed. However, even though he was cleared of any involvement in rum-running, he was put on a CAA (later FAA) blacklist and prevented from EVER obtaining a pilot's license - a circumstance that persisted despite appeals until his death more than sixty years later.

Even if the DOS doesn't conduct a predawn raid with a swat team, it's certainly possible that similar administrative sanctions might befall the hapless buyer of something from overseas that technically can't be imported. Will such people - even if not charged with any crime - wind up in some database that triggers re-evaluation of existing ATF registrations or in the future effectively prevents them from obtaining NFA transfer approval? Only time will tell.



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#18 Jay Baker

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 07:20 AM

I agree with hardrede on one point in particular. Guns America is really the one at fault here for accepting and broadcasting on the internet an illegal product without regard to the welfare of its customers. It's "buyer beware" as far as their concerned, as long as they get their cut. I will not buy or sell anything through an irresponsible company such as they.

The guy in Russia isn't doing anything illegal in his country. He can be familiar with the law in his country, but I wouldn't expect him to know ALL the laws outside his own nation no more than I would know the law outside of mine.

Still, if you're going to advertise for a fee anything related to regulated items such as these, you'd thing GA would have a legal department, or at least an attorney on retainer, to review questionable ads.

Bottom line is that it comes back on the individual to cover his own ass since a company like GA apparently neither cares or can be held accountable. That's why I have a shelf of state and federal books covering just laws on firearms. I'm sure Hardrede does, too, and to his credit, he seems to know them frontwards and backwards.
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#19 Norm

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 07:36 AM

"Caveat Emptor" dry.gif
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#20 SecondAmend

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 09:16 AM

Wouldn't surprise me to learn the guy in FSU really does know he can't ship to the U.S. That does not stop him from placing his ads with whoever will run them (clearly not E-Bay) and cashing the Western Union money-gram when some unknowing person sends it to him.

What is the person who sends the money and gets nothing going to do? Sue in U.S. court to enforce an illegal import or go to the FSU and sue there for $520.
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