20 replies to this topic

[mikef79]

answered, thank you

Edited by mikef79, 25 October 2004 - 08:30 PM.

[LIONHART]

One just sold the other day on here for $600.00

[John Jr]

Round 800-1200 is the range (DAMN LIONHART, you sold too cheap!)

Jr

[TD.]

I think the WWII drums are slowly going down in price. The thought of import drums is in the air and sellers are getting worried. Of course, should none arrive in the next few months, the prices will start back up.

[john]

I'd agree with TD. I've been watching drum prices very carefully for a loooonnngggg time and believe they are coming down. Probably won't come down much on the Mil and Colt, but as drums go back into production all the WH and LEO drums (as well as new ones) will hit rock bottom after market becomes saturated. THEN the prices on the original stuff will start to creep down a bit more. Then I may buy, but I'm in no hurry unless I find a real bargain.

john

[LIONHART]

John Jr, it wasn't me who sold to cheap. Shit..That dude was also offering a NY "L" for around $800.00 if I remember correctly...

[Charlie]

I decided to sell my Bridgeport for $600 plus shipping.
Nobody, as far as I could see, was willing to pay more.
Maybe I was too impatient. But since over 100 people
had viewed my post, and nobody replied so much as a
how-do-you-do-no-thank-you, and since I wanted what
I considered a fair price for it (or the black-painted-by-the British,
or not, NY drum) I think it's a good deal for the buyer
as well as me. Besides that, I wasn't willing to wait any longer.

Maybe everyone else who offers one of these will get
someone to pay $800 and up. But I didn't see any of them
flying off the tables at Knob Creek.

It seems to me, anyway, that $1,000 for a Bridgeport is getting
close to the borders of "Thompson Greed" at least at this point in time.

Or am I just being stupid?

[LIONHART]

No, I don't think that you were being stupid. You received exactly what you wanted, or at least your bottom price. Nor, have I seen any selling for anymore that what you sold yours for. Just a few weeks ago, a nice Bridgeport sold for $625.00 on Sturmgewehr. Perhaps the reason for the falling prices are due to the current crop of WH Drums/Karh Drums that can be had for less than $300.00. Just imagine for a moment if we dare, what the prices would be on Machine Guns if the '86 law was to disappear!

[TD.]

Lionhart,
Your question concerning what the prices would be on Machine Guns if the '86 law was to disappear is valid one. With WWII Savage and AO 1928/M1 Thompsons fast approaching 20K, I believe that something may just happen one day soon on this issue. It all revolves around money...and as we all know, everything in the USA revolves around money. There appear to be many brand new in the crate Thompsons around the world selling for dirt cheap prices - with the only major market place being in the United States. I am guessing the dealers selling complete Thompson Part Kits from brand new guns are enjoying a big mark-up in their investment. Just imagine if you could sell brand new WWII Thompsons (legally, of course) at $5,000 a pop with an investment in each one under $1,000. Now you are talking some real money. With one small change in the law concerning Curio & Relic machine guns or any gun over 50 years old, your today purchased used condition 1928 Savage at 18K could be worth...well, let's just say a lot less.

I think those paying premium prices today are taking a risk. I agree the risk today is rather small, but I think there is still a risk involved. Of course, the market is what the market is, so if you want to own a full-auto Thompson, the choices are very limited. However, the price on the Bridgeport drums may just be an indicator of things to come. I saw many Bridgeport’s at the last Knob Creek show priced $850 and up. As Charlie said, " I didn't see any of them flying off the tables at Knob Creek." I believe Charlie received a fair price for this week. Last year at this time, he could have received much more. Next year at this time, well, let's just say the answer could be very interesting.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

People like Robert Silvers, who have accumulated an impressive NFA collection over the last two years when prices reached their most astronomical levels, can afford to pay the freight and not get hurt if the bottom dropped out of their value.

It seems that people on this board pay whatever the going rate is for a TSMG in order to shoot it. Buying NFA for investment purposes doesn't seem to be a priority for these people. If one wanted to wait for the ultimate moment in time when NFA prices return to the 1960's, then they will probably have abdicated any chance of ownership.

Anyone who would invest all their resources in any one commodity is beyond any rational thought in the first place.

But if NFA items are enjoying an appreciation in their values that they previously did not, what is the harm? How long have Luger's run the gamut of prices from $500 to $1 million? And the Price differences can consist of one unusual marking. Just because their value isn't partially related to NFA laws, that still doesn't explain the absurd asking prices for some. Judging the TSMG actual value, or any NFA item, by the pre 86 dealer figure is no more a reliable, realistic, accurate or defining value than the fact that TSMG's were selling for $2K 30 years ago.

The fact that a ban had a definitely set time period that expired without a fight, is not the same as changing a law requiring an act of Congress.

The end of the 1986 ban would make new machine gun manufacture possible again, but it wouldn't have any affect on making unregistered C&R weapons legal, or anymore plentiful, or drastically cheaper.

[philasteen]

I bought Charles' Bridgeport drum for $600 - even I thought that was a little bit too much, but given the choice of a new production drum or a WWII one, I went with the older one for two reasons - (i) for the history component and (ii) because I knew manufacturing quality would be better. FWIW this was a shooter for my 1927 Colt.

I am still looking for a Colt L and maybe C drum to go with it and I don't think the price on those is going to be any lower as a result of the expiration of the AWB. Arthur has it right, historic firearms (and drums) have intrinsic value that is not replicated when a law change allows new manufacture. Bridgeport drums are sagging in price because many people sought the WWII drums as shooters and are now switching to the cheap non-bans.

[colt21a]

gun folk's will always buy what they think they can afford.
we all have dreams of having it all. to have those dreams dashed upon the hard rock of reality.

and of course we only get the chance to have it all when we are here.as somebody once said in one of franks book's...we are only the curator of our own museum's while we are still here,or something like that!!

i have cleaned house....over the past five year's..as i have seen so many "vulture hunt's" over the past five year's of other collector's collection's...by there so called friends and neighbor's, "helpin the widow"
and it made me ill.

anyways drum price's> buy what you want and can afford.new drum to shoot,or collector to look at,and hold and handle and impress the "i know nuttin's"with.

c-drum's i could never follow the logic of the price going beyond what i used to pay for colt thompson's...are ferrari tires now sellin for more then the price of the car's? wink!!

anyways everybody have fun with the stuff.i have for over 35 years....and hopefully alot here will have another 35 years of enjoyment.it will just cost a little more of the green stuff.take care,ron

[LIONHART]

QUOTE

"You can't pay too much, just too early."

[Deputy 89C6]

I sold one before the AWB sunseted for $750.00

Steve

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Phil,

If the 1986 ban was retired, one still would not be able to make a gun C&R when the receiver is of new manufacture and never previously registered. Tube guns were not counted as C&R even before the 1986 law. Just as Colt wasn't making TSMG's before the 1986 ban, they would not be making them after the ban.

Of course all hobbies should be fun, but when one lives in a capitalistic society, there is always an entrance fee to play. The market determines the fees and the ceiling is when the hobbyists don't think it's worth playing anymore.

What is particularly a facet unique to the Colt Thompson is that the accessories, the ones that have nothing to do with gun laws, have somehow poll vaulted over the price of what the actual TSMG cost 15 years ago. What caused this phenomenon? Awareness?

[LIONHART]

QUOTE

What caused this phenomenon? Awareness?

STUPIDITY AND GREED

[TD.]

This is a really good discussion about trying to predict the future. Everyone has many valid points. I purposely limited my observations to WWII Thompsons because it appears there is a sufficient supply of these Thompsons in new condition that could brought into this country with the change of a few laws. If this happened, supply and demand would take over and the price of WWII Thompsons would plummet. If you use the 50-year rule I mentioned, the same could be said for any other weapon over 50 years old that is still in adequate supply in some overseas warehouse. For example, STENs, MP-40s, M3s, BARs, etc. It is all about money. And money has created awareness, along with stupidity and greed! I also think that any new law could clean up the Form 10, pre and post sample and unregistered weapon problem for a class of 50-year old machine guns. No UZIs, MP5s, M16s, AK-47s, or currently used modern era weapons need apply

I specifically did not mention Colt Thompsons or other limited production machine guns (ex. Colt Monitor BAR) in my original post because I don’t know how a small influx of these limited production weapons would affect the market. If the unregistered and Form 10 Colt Thompsons were suddenly transferable and the import of Colt Thompsons were allowed, I think you would see a fairly good increase in the number of available Colt Thompsons on the market in short order. I would guess a 500 or so guns would enter the market place. Maybe 1000. Maybe…. Let face it – this was and is a popular gun. Perhaps it is wishful thinking, but I believe the number of Colt Thompsons still in existence worldwide is great than most pundits would predict.

Perhaps we are on the path to a change. I do sense something in the air. Is it wishful thinking? How many people reading this post seriously thought 4 years ago the AWB had even a slim chance to sunset? We may know part of the answer on November 2, 2004. For certain, we are not going to retreat to the prices of the 50’s and 60’s for the Colt Thompsons and accessories. However, I do think a big rollback for WWII, WH and KAHR Thompsons and drums is certainly possible and would be a good thing for the machinegun marketplace.

[Walter63a]

Arthur, as usual, it seems that you are the odd man out! It comes down to the fact that some people know the,"cost of everything, but the value of nothing." Sure, we live in a capitalistic society, but, thank God, also a democratic (small d) one. We can alter the rules, our representatives are our servants (until dismissed), and our voices will be heard!!!! Chuck Schumer can drop dead, along with Hilary, John & John, Diane, Nancy, Ted, et al, because they pander to (cater to) the fearful and the greedy!!! Regards, Walter

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Walter,
Cost and value are not mutually exclusive. I know that your posts are exclusively preoccupied with gun laws, perhaps because you live in a state that has such stringent ones, therefore, you do not own full auto weapons, C&R ,or otherwise. Your values are judged through the prism of gun laws. But you will still be bemoaning your state's, or the governments, gun laws when they throw the first shovel of dirt on your box. Instead of living vicariously through other gun owners in other states, and tilting at windmills, maybe you could make some inroads into moving to a NFA firearm friendly state?

Some people just want a gun that fires automatically. They are not interested in any historical, or engineering facet about that firearm. I am not one of those. So by comparison, I am the odd man out, I guess. Although Philasteen seemed to be on the same page.

Many thought the Stewart Case was their Holly Grail to manufacture their own automatic weapons. That proved to be a pipe dream.

It is a never-ending discussion on this board, more than other gun NFA boards, about repealing every NFA law since 1934. The ending of the 1994 ban, that had a built in date of termination, while a rare and welcome change in the fortunes of gun owners, is in no way a portent of things to come. Some see this as a reverse domino effect, but unless the 1968 law was abolished, the ending of the 1986 law wouldn't increase the availability of any factory made WWII, or older, weapons in the U.S. And that was my original point.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Phil,
If the founding fathers were such devotees of simplicity, as you credit them, they must have known their document was anything but simple since they made a provision for nine justices to interpret what they wrote.

But a newly manufactured receiver using existing WWII parts, whether the classification of C&R existed or not, is still a parts gun.

You see all guns as guns. I don't. But the government's regulations are not the reason why I differentiate between a factory made full auto weapon and one made using a hodgepodge of parts.