70 replies to this topic

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

QUOTE

I really don’t think Gordon is tying to pass off his ejectors as new colts, give the man the benefit of the doubt!

Dave,
The essence of this topic was never that GH was selling reproduction parts as original, rather that the next owner may not be so conscientious about the origin of the part. Surely this much is obvious through out this thread.

[AZDoug]

Thanks for reminding me. I had forgotten about these. I will make sure to buy one at the SAR show because I can.

I will stick it in a little baggie, maybe with a tin box, put it in the safe, and when I die, my heirs can discover what appears to be an original Colt ejector and put it on E-bay.


Doug

[John Jr]

[Dave Janowski]

Arthur you have a good point, I did not look at it from that point of view!

Phil you are probably correct also! Clinton did not have sexual relations with that woman! ( i guess if it were a "plastic" cigar it would have been sexual)

Any how lets take today off from this post, I should have let it go!

Happy Thanks Giving, dont eat too much turkey or all of you will be big like me!

Dave

Edited by Dave Janowski, 25 November 2004 - 10:50 AM.

[colt21a]

i will see gordon at the show and buy all his ejector's...and bury them,then dig them up in ten year's.for the new collector's...and sell them at $25.00 each..and hear them moan and groan.

i will lose money for the "children"
wink!!

i'm going back to "german stuff'
thompson's have gotten to let's say!!

well 'er... TENSE

[colt21a]

QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Nov 25 2004, 07:07 PM)

QUOTE (colt21a @ Nov 25 2004, 01:02 PM) i'm going back to "german stuff' thompson's have gotten too let's say!! well 'er... TENSE More lube, Ron! Just use MORE LUBE!!! Almost every tense situation can be resolved with MORE LUBE!

nope lube don't do it, honesty,fair price's,and not jackin fellow collector's...........now everybody want's the king's ransom.for whatever it is........................

heck sold three m-1d garand's,papered d.c.m.all n.i.b. for $9,000.00 a smokin deal..now people want $4,000.00 plus for just one!!!

and that was this year.not some sale's decade's ago...the market has gone nut's on everything...now even the japanese are on the rise...........get it? rise japanese sun!!wink!!
take care,ron

[tom catman]

hey guys. i have a kahr 1927 and would like to ask how the ejector comes out,i am making a 22lr conversion for it and would like to make a ejector for the 22's.,and dont want to bend or break the original,,rhakns.

[AZDoug]

I saw those liitle boxes and ejectors and cleaning rods today at the SAR show.

Very nicely made, quality, authentic looking productions.

You purists don't have to worry, however. They look too new, it will take at least 50 years of use for them to acquire the undefinable patina of age to look original, at which time, no one will care whether they were made in 1921 or 2004.

That little box was so nice, even me, the cheapskate, was tempted to part with a few c-notes to buy one.

Doug

[tom catman]

thanks philohio for your response,i havent tried that yet in removal of the extractor,as for a lot of work ,well yes it is.am 99% done with the barrell,then need the bolt and the toughest will probably be the drum mag,.....later dude.

[john]

I don't usually like to get involved in disputes such as these but as long as I am a member of these boards, I'll toss my $.02 out for all to see. Heck, I might even toss out 2 bits!! I realize that I am now fair game and open to any and all attacks that will probably commence to be hurled my direction, but this needs to be said. Remember, this is my opinion. If you don't like it, hit your "back" key and look at something else.

I've seen Gordon's stuff and it really is first rate, top shelf and of the highest quality. I do sincerely believe that Gordon is doing this for the love of the Thompson and as a favor to his friends in the collectors world. he will not get rich or even make much....he may even lose a few bucks. But I think what concerns him is a need for an authentic part to replace a broken one where a supply no longer exists.

People whine about the cost of his Serial Numbers book, but if you consider the extremely limited market, then think about the HUNDREDS of hours and the THOUSANDS of dollars spent on doing this research for this book, it doesn't take an Einstein to figure out that he ain't making a lot per hour for his time spent on this project!

Then the spare parts boxes came along. And then the cleaning equipment, and now the ejectors. Each of these projects cost thousands of dollars to set up (HEY! Any diemakers or machinists out there? PLEASE jump in and inform the board why these parts aren't cost effective to make unless you produce thousands to a huge market!!) Gordon has/is producing an extremely limited supply of all of these parts. Obviously he will be lucky (even at the prices he charges) to break even on these parts. And when his parts are gone, everyone will whine that flat ejectors aren't to be found anywhere. Then someone else will stick their neck out, make a couple hundred parts and the whining will again commence!!

I personally have thought about (along with a Machinist and Diemaking friend of mine) making reproduction drum parts. How many of us have a nice Colt drum with a mismatched cover, or with a GI key?? Or that Seymour drum with a sloppy West Hurley rotor inside?? Or a Bridgeport drum with a badly dented body???
What stopped me was the fact that it would cost many TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars (literally, folks!) to tool up a set of dies to produce drum parts. Then the stamping dies for identification. Brackets. Rotors. Rivets. Springs. Then the proper finishing, nickeling of the rotors, etc. And for what? So several on the boards could hammer away at my effort to create parts to fill that niche left by a nonexistant supply??

NO THANKS! I don't need that!!

Some obviously consider these parts "counterfeits". Counterfeit is defined as a product produced to imitate an original in order to deceive others by selling them that product under the guise of it being original.
I perceive these as being "reproduction parts. A "reproduction" is defined as a product produced to imitate an original in order to make that product available where no supply exists.

Now the gray area.....to some of us here on the boards, anyway.

Counterfeits deceive others by making the unaware believe that all parts of an assembly are original. Markings (if any) are identical to the originals. Identical appearance is important for many trying to replace that broken ejector on their pristine '21 Colt where no spares exist. I personally wouldn't want a spare that had a GH marked on it (even on the back) but that's just me. It would NOT be my intention to deceive anyone if a future sale ever took place, but my idea of original includes "as close to original" as possible. If it doesn't look right........
I wouldn't want a parts box either if it had a small "GH" stamped inconspicuously in a corner. Or a tiny "reproduction". But that's just me.
Personally, because of Gordon's marketing technique, I'll call these reproduction parts. They are not counterfeit, nor is Gordon attempting to fool anyone by saying these are original. He is simply making reproduced parts available in as close to original configuration as possible (for the "purist" in some of us).

Now my point. (has to be a catch here, right?)

If you feel that the unmarked parts are potentially deceptive and you don't want an unmarked "repro" part on your gun, GO AHEAD AND MARK YOURS ANY WAY YOU SEE FIT . Nobody is stopping you. Put your own initials on it if it makes you happy. It's kinda like Kids and Television, folks!! If you don't want your kids watching a sex scene on TV, TURN IT OFF!!! The power is yours. If you don't like the fact that Gordon doesn't mark his parts, don't buy them, or buy them and mark them yourself.

Gordon is not deceiving anyone here folks. He sells these as reproduction parts. If anyone is deceived by these parts in the future, that is not Gordon's doing. Nor is he producing these so that others will be able to deceive the unwary in the future (although that possibility does exist).

Gordon is just the manufacturer and merchant. But if you still believe that his production of these parts is setting up some sort of criminal act waiting for a time and place to happen, then I'd bet you also believe that guns cause crime, right??

'Nuff said.

john

BTW, anyone ever think about knurling a smooth actuator knob or a smooth selector?? Wouldn't be too tough to do.......

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

John,
I submitted a poll on this very issue on this board and the overwhelming majority of people who voted were in favor of some identifying mark on such parts.

In order for your militant resistance to GH marking any of these parts in the most unobtrusive manner to make sense, you will have to tell me how such a process would cause you so much discomfort that you would just as soon reject the part. Since you already know it is a repro, how would this mark make you believe otherwise? Did you think that after a year past, you would wake up one day and forget that you didn't have an original spare parts box, or Colt ejector? What if one day GH told you that he had indeed secretly marked these items? Would you throw them out?

Maybe you are still coming down off the high of meeting GH at the SAR show. But your remark that this topic is analogous to guns causing crime reveals your argument to be obdurate and feckless. GH is a person, not an inanimate object. Again, his intentions may have been pure gold, but why leave the door open for others down the road to profit where GH never intended them to do so?

Your jejune solution for owners to apply their own marks to GH's intentionally unmarked products sounds like an idea worthy of Johnny Cochran.

[AZDoug]

QUOTE (john @ Dec 7 2004, 05:17 PM)

BTW, anyone ever think about knurling a smooth actuator knob or a smooth selector?? Wouldn't be too tough to do.......

Piece of cake to take a smooth selector and or safety, drill and chamfer a hole, and use a checkering file to knurl them.

What tips them off from originals is that undefinable patina of age, which included the smoothing of the knurling by the contact of fingers over years and years.

Doug

PS: It all depends on your world view of things as far as reproduction/new productions/counterfeit goes.

Those that want things marked most likely already have a sizable amount invested in stuff and don't want that investment diluted by things that the question arises as to whether they may or may not be original.

As far as views on things, I, for example, don't see anything wrong with leaving a beer bottle in a suitably remote spot. Some may call it litter; I think of it as doing a public service be leaving an archeological artifact for future generations to find and cherish. I mean, wouldn't you be all excited to find a bottle from 1880 laying in a remote mountain valley? In 2130, I will make someones life happier by the beer bottle I left behind.

Doug

Edited by AZDoug, 08 December 2004 - 01:13 AM.

[John Jr]

QUOTE

Nobody is stopping you. Put your own initials on it if it makes you happy. It's kinda like Kids and Television, folks!! If you don't want your kids watching a sex scene on TV, TURN IT OFF!!! The power is yours. If you don't like the fact that Gordon doesn't mark his parts, don't buy them, or buy them and mark them yourself.

I suppose that if your kids don't watch sex on TV then everything will be alright. People don't buy reproduction parts that are unmarked to go out and market the wares as originals. At least we hope they dont. I doubt Gordon wants this to happen. However, he reads this board, and he is reading this topic I know. This is at least the third instance of this "mark the part" crap coming up. Why doesn't he go ahead and mark the part? Doug Richardson makes 1921 barrels out of despised M1 barrells and I understand they look EXACTLY like real REMINGTON 21 barrels. He DOES NOT MARK THEM. Both Gordo and Doug are HIGHLY RESPECTED THOMPSON PEOPLE. They are even up there with Frank and Tracy Hill. BuT.........

Mark the FUCKING REPRODUCTION PART people. Is that so hard to understand.


As all of you know, I have no interest in Colt Thompsons and all the garbage that goes along with them, but If I was a Colt Thompson collector, I would be very upset about all the reproduction parts that go unmarked.

[Lancer]

QUOTE (LIONHART @ Dec 8 2004, 01:07 PM)

It's simple. A perfect reproduction isn't perfect if it's marked.

I've resisted weighting in this issue because feelings are so strong on both sides of the issue and it has become obvious that no minds are going to be changed. But regardless of this I just have to point this out because it really IS simple. A perfect reproduction that is'nt marked has a name. It's called a counterfeit.
Anyone can tell that this just doesn't pass the smell test.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Lionhart,
If you are indeed a stickler for perfection and originality, then BUY the original. If you are into reproductions, no matter how authentic, but never genuine, then you should have no problem with allowing others to know that your part is a repro, just a you know it is. We are talking about three dimensional functional, utilitarian pieces, not Object D'art. But what is considered a forgery in the latter's world is also applicable in the repro firearm parts world.

A counterfeit $20 bill is still counterfeit whether the owner passes it off at the Walgreens or holds on to it for life.

An artist is allowed to make twelve copies of their sculpture, but all have to be numbered. Any further copy, even if made in the artist's lifetime and under their supervision, is legally considered a reproduction, and the word "reproduction" must appear on the sculpture. But there is no specification as to the size and placement of said marking.

Granted the penalties and eventual enforcement for fraud in the art world are way beyond what we are talking about here. Would, or should, GH do 18 months in prison like Guy Hain did for his bronze forgeries? Only if a Colt TSMG ever hangs in the Louvre and is discovered to have forged parts, I guess.

[Norm]

Die thread, DIE!

No one on this board is going to change their mind on this subject.

Can we all just agree on that?

Norm

[LIONHART]

NO!

Actually, I'm just sitting here removing fresh Pudding Skins with an Exacto Knife. Hopefully if I'm quick, more Skins will grow....

Say Norm, sorry I haven't yet emailed you that Pic. I will get to it soon.

[Ron A]

One thing we know - the beat goes on!

Each person has a different positon on the issue - I had a chance to purchase a "real nice" Colt patterson several years ago, one problem - fake bbl. I wouldnt touch it with a ten foot pole. This was too much restoration. A small part like a trigger would have passed, but not the complete BBl.

Some day this gun will be passed off as original and someone will get it in the shorts. Maybe at that time the price of pattersons will be such, and number available will make the buyer not care.

The small parts for the thompson I can live with, Doug's BBl I can live with because it will be next to impossible for an advanced collector not to know its a replacement - at least it saves a gun, the next issue is value - that's up to the buyer and seller.

Gordon's box - its not the exact same as an original, my suggestion is know what you are looking at before putting any serious money out on any gun item.

Not everyone will agree on this issue - that's your right - if you don't like the repo don't buy them!

[AZDoug]

QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Dec 8 2004, 10:36 AM)

And I'm dubious about Doug's argument that his dumping of beer bottles in the wild is a laudable service to future archaeologists. Are you putting us on?

I don't *dump* bottles or other item, I place them in remote locations, where they may be found later. You will never see one of my future artifacts on a casual stroll around. Maybe though in a cave, grotto, or sheltered area, or perhaps in a jumble of rocks a mile from the nearest trail.

Todays trash is tomorrows treasure. remember all those 1930's cars they used to dump in the riverbanks to controll erosion? Bet you would like that 1934 Ford a lot better today, if it wasn't all rusted out from the mud. If this stuff wasn't intersting, why are archaologists even employed? Just bulldoze evrything down as trash, destroy the past. But the past, begins today.

Failure to see the future, makes us destory the present.

I remember a conversation witha ranger person at a national forest. We were discussing what was up this trail in a wilderness area. She said a ghost town and a bunch of mining trash. i asked what kind of trash. She said old buildings, machinery, processing stuff, etc, but the forest service was going to remove it. I asked why? Why leave a ghost town and not the mining stuff. her reply was: "well, the ghost town is from the 1880's and is historic, the mine was abandonded in the 1950's, it is just junk." I then asked her: 'well, don't you think people might find that mining operation as interesting and historic as a ghost town 100 years from now?" All i got was a dirty look.

it all depends on your view of things,and to blythly state that it isn't relative, is a crock.

Doug

[colt21a]

now i know why i post less...

after reading this all again.........at s.a.r.show gordon and the other's had some great table's and display's...and was selling his ware's to pay the $90.00 per table rent....and his great gangster outfit.... so why press the man..................soon we will be gone from the planet.....the metal parts will still be around....so what???

we won't,and somebody else can have fun with this stuff.wink!!

folk's we need to get a life.....or change it!! take care,ron