12 replies to this topic

[Mike Hammer]

When buying a gun from an out of state dealer whom I don't know and who is asking for all the money up front for a Thompson, what can I do on my part to make sure that I will actually get the gun when the paperwork clears? Do I need to draw up a formal bill of sale or contract or is this something the dealer should provide? What board would be the best to ask if anyone has delt with a particular dealer? What are the risks in transactions like this, these guns are now being sold for big $$$ and paying up front seems like a risky venture when you won't receive the goods for several months.

[colt21a]

mike the best way is if you feel not easy about something don't do it and don't buy thompson's...most want all the money..i wish i could buy everything c.o.d.but it does not work that way at all...you have to take chances with this stuff sometimes..

and if its a really big deal. fly out and see it.mostly on my deal's i would give a serial number and send everything else on what is included in the deal.upon payment in full.then the rec.when paperwork clear's.this way the buyer has peace of mind when he's made payment...

for somebody that won't do that for you,step back quick!!!

since you really own it all upon payment in full..its just the paper you are going to wait on...i did deals like that for years...only had one mishap on a mp-40 some years ago...and the guy got ancy.and wanted refund...he got it and he shipped everything back....now years later he is probably kickin his own arse.since the gun went up over $4,000.00 to $5,000.00 buck's{ i laugh sold it to another dealer and got my money back the same week!!}

we all live and learn....good luck in whatever you find and buy out there.....its getting more hairy with all the greed.rip- artists.selling krap...and saying it's great.....

sad to say it will get worse before better....

take care,ron

[Sig]

Mike

For the $ we are talking about today especially when condition dictates so much of the value one should if at all possible go see the TSMG. Both of my Colt TSMG's I went to see before committing, in both cases the dealer agreed to hold it for my inspection one asking for a small deposit. If you can not go see it have one of the many board members who knows you go look for you and be your eyes and ears. In my opinon the TSMG world is too visible for much opportunity for fraud thus in my case I was quite comfortable just inspecting the TSMG's and making the deal and leaving. I was most interested in confirming condition which was the reason I went to go see them.

If you do not know the dealer before that go to the subguns.com boards and check to see if the dealer is listed on the Recommended Dealer or Good Guys list BUT if not listed that does not necessarily mean they are bad those listed are just dealers who were nominated for being reliable. Failing to find them on the Good Guys list check the Board of Inquiry area (in the Messages section) and ask, usually someone will know them. Subguns board

You should always ask for a copy of the Form 3 or 4 whatever applies, of course a dealer intent on fraud could just show you an older copy of a gun they once had but I think that would be an extremely rare chance for the reason noted above (too visible).

I always have a bill of sale drawn. Finally if you want to have as much comfort as possible, when your funds clear all transferrable parts should be sent or if you happen to pay by cashier check and are seeing the TSMG yourself, leave with those parts, stock, lower, internals and any accessories.

michael

[45fan]

All the above suggestions are good ones. You can also do a couple more things to give you some added piece of mind.

First, draw up a simple one page sales contract laying out the specifics of the deal. Be sure to include language stating that the buyer's/seller's heirs are bound by the deal since you never know what might happen in the 3 months or more that it takes for the transfer to be approved.

Second, when you make your deal request that the seller ship all parts less the registered (barreled) receiver to you upon receipt of payment. I know of more than one case where the buyer received a Thompson with a bulged barrel or with other evidence of abuse simply because the unscrupulous seller felt he had someone else's gun once he had the buyer's money. Besides, having some parts in hand will likely make you rest a little easier, and give you something to fondle while you wait for the transfer to go through.

Hope this helps!

[JimFromFL]

Type a simple letter describing the transaction and item along with the serial number and cost.

Include the names and addresses of both parties.

Have the person sign (and possible notarize) the paper and send it back to you.

For the most part, you are at the mercy of the seller and must "hope" that person is honest.

[Mike Hammer]

Well, I intend on going out to see the gun and inspect...there is just too much money involved not to. Asking for the parts except the upper is something I never thought of and seems like a reasonable idea if it is indeed legal to do that before paperwork clears. Some type of signed contract with heirs liability also sounds like an excellent idea. Thanks for all your suggestions. It's just that I don't like to totally rely on 'trust' when it come to very large sums of money and waiting on something.

Edited by Mike Hammer, 01 November 2004 - 09:18 AM.

[john]

Check over on Subguns.com. Tom Bowers keeps a "good guy" list over there whereby you can check out dealers. Gotta be pretty decent businessperson to make it on that list. If your "dealer" isn't on there then check Tom's "Board of inquiry"....you ask specifically about that person by name and others who have done business with OR had bad luck with will (most of the time) respond to your post and tell you what they think. Never been burned checking someone out there first.

Sometimes it's more or less a leap of faith.....but you can do quite a bit of sleuthing on your own. I bought an M16 upper from a guy after checking out his e-mail addy. It turned out he worked for the Dept. of Energy at a Lab complex out East. CHecked their website and there were his employee profiles. Everything I needed to know. Sent him the cash and got a really nice Bushy upper for a decent price!

Have the dealer put it in writing and avoid sending Money orders to P.O. boxes. If you do business with a VISA card or personal check you have some recourse if the deal doesn't pan out.

Good Luck!

john

[TNKen]

You really need to check closely on the reputation of the dealer. I had a guy that was lauded by all (and on Bowers RDL) try and screw me over for $300.

Bought another handgun from a guy that everyone sings praises about, gun described at 93%. Was looking for an HK USP .40 for a friend. Gun arrived, looking like it had been dragged behind a truck. Banged up, well worn, front sight insert missing, worn slide, worn rails on the frame, etc. etc. etc. A beat up police trade in. Guy is still in business, everyone still sings his praises.

There is always an element of "puffing" which is perfectly acceptable under the law. Intentionally misrepresenting conditions is different. For example, if I say the finish is flawless, runs like a top, shows little wear, 95% condition all that may be true. However, the barrel may be bulged. Not an uncommon condition in MG's, and considering the cost of a barrel, could arguably qualify the gun as a 95% condition firearm (probably not to me or you though). If I ask whether the gun has a bulged barrel, and the seller says no, but the barrel is actually bulged, entirely different story, that being actual misrepresentation.


Realize that rating a gun is a subjective exercise. It is often what is not disclosed that becomes the problem.

If I was getting ready to chunk that kind of money in a gun, unless you are really strong on knowing what to look for, get an RKI to go or to go with you. OR take pictures and put here for a critical opinion. Just like Corvettes, everything is either being reproduced or altered to fit the particular car.

Don't get scared, and have fun in the chase.

Ken

[JTinIN]

Just as an FYI the BOI on Subguns only covers the people actually selling on Subguns.com (either active or current archives).

[Sgt]

Calling references and doing a little research is a good idea. That includes verifying the names on the current registration form, like where the gun came from and who it went to. When I made my purchases, I felt better knowing that the gun was with the seller and I verified where he got it (not always possible). I guess that is not fullproof, but gives you more of a paper trail, in case it turns out to be a scam. I also agree with the others on getting a written contract, signed by the parties involved. That will also help to protect you, in case the seller dies before you receive the gun.

Pay a small deposit to hold, if you want to see the gun in person. When you send the big check, make sure it is sent certified mail. Keep copies of all correspondence and receipts.

I didn't have much luck on receiving all the parts, except receiver, prior to the transfer coming through. I guess most sellers don't feel comfortable breaking up the gun, before everything is finalized. They want everything up front, so it takes a lot of faith. Good luck

[Sig]

If you pay for the gun upfront and ANY seller does not want to break up the parts, RUN as fast as you can.
Technically the gun is yours after the funds clear, other than a transfer document which only applies to the registered part.

[philasteen]

QUOTE (Sig @ Nov 2 2004, 05:00 AM)

If you pay for the gun upfront and ANY seller does not want to break up the parts, RUN as fast as you can. Technically the gun is yours after the funds clear, other than a transfer document which only applies to the registered part.

I disagree with that. While I am all in favor of sending parts to the buyer, sometimes I don't feel competent enough to disassemble a gun. One time, a guy who bought an M2 carbine asked me to send him everything but the receiver. Now, I've never disassembled an M2, but I don't imagine the non-registered parts amount to more than a stock and a few odds and ends. So what's the point?

[Waffen Und Bier]

Additionally, you double your chances of losing parts or receiver. Say the parts don't make it to their destination or get damaged, now you have a receiver with soon to be non matching parts. Nothing can make that right with serial numbered parts.

Plus, those parts being out there now muddy the water. What if the transfer doesn't go through or what if the buyer and seller have a disagreement? The parts are now subject to "loss", damage, rusting, etc. They may never get back with the gun again.

Really, on an M16 the parts that can get shipped to the buyer amount to less than 5% of the gun's value. They can stay with the transferable part.

Besides, I'm not gonna pull the barrel off of a Thompson, or MP44, or BAR. Too much risk of damage.

This is JMHO.

I've been lucky with most of my buy and sells. I'll definately do business differently if I ever go to buy or sell again.