19 replies to this topic

[Merry Ploughboy]

hardrede is correct.

The AG opinion comports with the statute.

The statute is the typical muddled and befuddled ramblings of a state legislature.

MP

[Norm]

In the last paragraph of the AG Opinion it reads:

QUOTE

....rifles and shotguns whose barrels are at least 16 and 18 inches in length, respectively, with folding and/or telescoping stocks, which are fully operable with stocks folded or contracted, and whose lengths are less than 26 inches...

Does this mean that a rifle or shotgun can legally fold up below the 26 inch minimum as long as the weapon will not operate in the folded/contracted position?

Norm

[Merry Ploughboy]

Norm,

Ask the AG for an Opinion. Current AG, Cox, is a Republican so you may get lucky. On the other hand, even if Cox says "okay", I would not want to risk spending prison time on the off chance that there's a way, any way, that the gun could operate with the stock folded.

MP

[PATHFINDER]

Here is exactly what you said on the 28th, I did not misquote you.

Moot point. In Michigan you cannot own an SBR unless it is a C&R. I have the AG opinion right here if you want a copy. Michigan also has the "30 inches rule." Fed Law is 26 O.A.L. with 16" or better barrel on a rifle. Michigan is 30 inches. If it is 26-30 inches, you MUST register it as a pistol. That is the confusion.

The 30" rule you refer to is about PISTOLSnot SBRs

'(g) 'Short-barreled rifle' means a rifle having 1 or more barrels less than 16 inches in length or a weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.'


Again your 30 inch reference has nought to do with SBRs. This is ALL that I originaly ment to point out. Yes a short weapon(in Michigans case under 30 inches) is a pistol as you have stated over and over again.

But one MADRE FROM A RIFLE (SBRs) have to have an OAL of less than 26". It also must be registered with the state. Since we have no state provisions for seperate registry of SBRs they are using the same system we use for pistols.

[Merry Ploughboy]

I'd have to look up the dates to be sure, but I think part of the reason why Michigan has the 30" rule is because of the Postal worker who killed co-workers (and then himself?) with a Ruger 10/22 that had a folding stock that he hid under his coat. The 10/22 so outfitted meets the 26" rule but not the 30" rule. At the time, the 10/22 may have been permissible.

As pointed out above, a Remington 870 shotgun with 18" barrell also meets the 26" rule but not the 30" rule. However, a Remington 870 with a 20" barrell and folding stock does exceed 30". Thus, police can have a "riot gun" Remington 870 freely available to anyone on the force without the hassle of having it registered as a pistol.

The gods of Lansing probably believe that they have a set of laws that protects whoever from crazies sneaking in concealed guns while letting the police have a feasible car carry riot-type shotgun.

Just some thought on the whole 26/30 thing.

MP

[giantpanda4]

Guys,

I have been thinking about having a Michigan shoot - seems we have a lot of MI residents here (and a lot close by too)!

But now I wonder if that is such good idea! But seriously, maybe this Spring if I can find a range that would support a shoot . chili cookoff or something, sounds like fun! Add a few pops (as Mickey Redmond would say) and maybe we could have some great dialogue as well!

Any ideas?

[PATHFINDER]

No, it is not wht you said

QUOTE (hardrede @ Dec 6 2004, 11:01 PM)

QUOTE Michigan also has the "30 inches rule." Fed Law is 26 O.A.L. with 16" or better barrel on a rifle. This was to denote the difference between Federal Law and State Law on firearms OAL and barrel length

Here you are comparing the Federal law covering SBRs (ie: somthing made from rifle) to the Michigan law covering firearms NOT made from a rifle that are under 30 inches needing to be clasified as pistols.
This why there are TWO seperate definitions because they are two SEPEARTE classes of weapons

QUOTE

If it is 26-30 inches, you MUST register it as a pistol. That is the confusion

Here you are syaing that it (the SBR) is "as a pistol" and must be registered as such. I have a Michigan registration for a motorcycle and a car. Both registered in the same manner at the same place using the same form.
BUT, what you are saying is tanamount to me having To register my mototrcycle as car because I am using the same form and the same office.

The same LAW covers the registration of both, it does not mean that they are both registerd as the same thing.

SO, SBRs DO have to be registered in Michigan BUT they are NOT registered as pistols (as you claimed) but rather they are registered as SBRs.

[ThompsonCrazy]

O.K. I live in MI also. I want to purchase an underfolder semi AK..... Barrel is 16" but folded is less than 30".

What do I do?
Can I own it? / Can't I own it?
Do I apply for a pistol permit prior to purchase?
Can I not own one legally?

Talk to me guys.....You both seem to be knowledgible and I have heard conflicting "rumors" from the gun show peanut gallery about ownership. Would anything change if I built it myself with the correct 6 US made parts?
What do you think for this example? Thanks, TC

[PATHFINDER]

Read the laws concerning rifles in Michigan. They are pretty clear.

The under 30 inch rule concerns pistols.

If it is a rifle(or a weapon made from rifle) and is under 26 inches it a SBR and must be registered.

[ThompsonCrazy]

I thought MI did not allow SBR unless C&R?
What about the purhcase permit? Do I obtain the permit first or just purchase the weapon and bring it to the local PD? I do not want to walk in with the thing and they confiscate it.
TC

[M1Brian]

Thompson Crazy

I'm in MI also and so far have gone the semi route as well due to the laws. On your purchase permit issue if you hold a current MI CPL not CCW you do not need a purchase permit to buy a pistol. Just present your CPL to the dealer and buy your pistol. Take it to the local PD afterwards for the safety inspection and your in business. I currently own a preban 6520 govt. carbine with adjustable stock and that is witihin the MI laws as would a AK underfolder. Those were never illeagle in MI and were a common sight at gun shows before the 94 ban.

M1Brian

[scottedwin]

Rather than fighting about 26 & 30" rules....lets get together a shoot in Michigan. I am in Kalamazoo...but will go anywhere in Michigan if we can set something up.

FWIW....there is a pin shoot in Holland on Saturday at Tulip City Gun Club. We have been doing it 3x each winter for years and have a pretty good size subgun group...maybe 12-14 shooters with NFA subguns. Email if you want info on the shoot this Saturday. scott@pdguns

Scott
FFL/SOT

[DDAYJune6]

I live in Genesee Michigan someone could be nice and let me shoot there thompson, i promise ill be gentle , I love michigan too, theres just so much that you can do. almost every day that i have to drive my sister to soccerzone in Grand Blanc I drive past the old tank plant and it makes me proud that Michigan did so much for the war effort

Edited by DDAYJune6, 08 December 2004 - 10:28 PM.

[giantpanda4]

On the subject of a shoot / get together in MI...

My thoughts would be somewhere in South Central Mi. My "home" range is in Howell, but the bastards woun't allow full auto (there are a LOT of problems when a new sub plops down next to an old established range - but that is another thread!).

I do belong to another club in Hartland (actually near Brighton) that allows full auto, but I have to go to a board meeting and request to do a shoot there. The next meeting isn't till Jan.

Otherwise, there is a club (Cheif Okemos SC) in Dimondale, 10 mi SW of Lansing, that my family has been active there for 40+ years. They do allow full auto, but I am not a member there, and my Mom would have to get us in. She is 71 and still shooting smallbore for the COSC team! Location would be good - I'll have her check on it.

I would like not to do this on the same dates as the Az. TCA shoot, maybe sometime in May. But anytime between now and May i would be game to go and shoot!

I will gather info, and start a new thread when I have it.

Anyone in the area who can come up with a club - let us know!

All for now....

[PATHFINDER]

This is the last thing I will say in this thread concerning C&R and OAL length laws.

I quote Bill in VA (in another thread concerning C&R status for new Thompsons):

"Yup. Anyone can petition for C&R determination. See 178.26."

This is (usually) why you see single weapons listed by individual serial number in the C&R list. The director has given an individual rulling on just that one item.
All ya gots ta do is ask, all they can say is no.


I would be up for a shoot. I can bring an StG-44. Hampton Roads is churnning out some ammo for me as we speak. I live near Ann Arbor, I don't know of any ranges in south central Mich that allow full auto.

Giant Panda
Get info about joining the club for us. I am sure we would all pony up the cash to join even if it was to just attend an all Michigan all FA shoot once or twice a year. This would also help the club out with range maintainance etc. and put our best foot forward to establishing a long term relationship with them as a group.

Hardrede,
I am sorry about the last few days. I came across as more of a dick than I wanted too. This is the nature of the internet posting system. The 'ENTER 'key really needs a three day waiting period!

Ultimately it is not up to us to interpret and argue the laws individualy, this is why we have a court system. Everyone should have the laws intrepreted and explained to them by trained legal council before engaging in ANY modification to ANY firearm. Legaleeze is best left to the lawyers trained in its nuances.

[scottedwin]

Here is another techinical question regarding registering SBR in Michigan...despite the length...everyone agrees that certain C&R guns need to be registered as or similiar to pistols in Michigan. Before I had my SOT...I had C&R guns and did register them according. My question is...how the heck do you unregister them if you sell them outside of Michigan on a C&R. With a non C&R gun....you would need a purchase permit or CCW to sell to another individual in Michigan...if you sold outside of Michigan..it would go through an FFL....both which would notify the State that you no longer own that given gun. But when a NFA C&R gun is transferred direct out of state to another C&R...do you write a letter to the state notifying them?

[Merry Ploughboy]

MG Shoots in Michigan:

The late Rick Peterson used to have a Labor Day MG shoot at his farm near Grand Rapids however, his widow has apparently expressed no interest in continuing the event.

There are occasional shoots at a gravel pit near Lapeer.

[PATHFINDER]

QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Dec 9 2004, 02:36 PM)

Got one too...MP-43, but I never shoot it because it is so much trouble to get out the case forming and bullet swaging dies and then hose them out at about seven per second...so slow and then so fast.  I might just bring it for show and tell.

Graf and Sons Inc. will have unprimed brass after the first of the year.
I guess it is time for me to learn HOW to reload!

Jungle Walk? You have helped other 44 owners in the past, what is the magic fourmula for bullet weight and powder type/charge?

[giantpanda4]

From what i understand the Gravel Pit in Lapeer is either on Memmorial day or Labor day (forgot which!). This is just an informal blasting at the pit. Never been there yet, but I do have a few pics from there last summer. Email me if you want to see them. One has a brass catcher on a tommy, never seen that before.