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Colt #206


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#21 AZDoug

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Posted 15 December 2004 - 01:23 AM

Pic 3 and 4 show a fake bolt. Or at least a S bolt with the P removed--bottom right of the Blish lock slot. See the little divot ground into the metal?

A pair of calipers would prove this, Colt bolts are just ever so slightly longer than S and AOC bolts.

Doug
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#22 John Jr

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Posted 15 December 2004 - 01:45 AM

QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Dec 15 2004, 12:35 AM)
AZDoug,

I agree. Those bolt pictures just didn't look right to me, in general; looked like a lot of grinding and polishing might have been done. But I guess it could just be the photography.

Pic 3 and 4 show a fake bolt. Or at least a S bolt with the P removed--bottom right of the Blish lock slot. See the little divot ground into the metal?

A pair of calipers would prove this, Colt bolts are just ever so slightly longer than S and AOC bolts.

Doug

So the 50K gun is a fake at best. Figures.

God, I am glad I don't collect Colt crap. From the fake parts to the ground off letters on GI parts....

No Thanks



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#23 AZDoug

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Posted 15 December 2004 - 02:49 AM

QUOTE (John Jr @ Dec 14 2004, 11:45 PM)
[QUOTE=PhilOhio,Dec 15 2004, 12:35 AM]
God, I am glad I don't collect Colt crap. From the fake parts to the ground off letters on GI parts....


i found an original 1921 Colt bolt at the SAR show for not too much more than NIW GI bolts were selling for, so i had the seller do a lay-a-way type thing, and brought in a 10X jewelers loupe and GI bolt (for comparison) in the next day to inspect it for weld overs, machining marks, dimensions, etc.

Turned out to be original, and I completed the transaction, but you gotta be diligent these days. I saw some idiot that was selling welded over S bolts, as Colt (he actually claimed ignorance and got the deer-in-headlights look when pressed), back in 1997 at a PHX show for $450 per bolt! (look for a funny spot in the metal grain where the S should be)

Doug
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#24 Walter63a

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Posted 15 December 2004 - 07:12 AM

It looks to be a great shooter, but I wouldn't pay much more than $20,000 for this package. blink.gif cool.gif The rebluing and wood refinishing make the difference. Also, the white/yellow lettering mean nothing to me. The photos are good, however. Thanks for bringing this gun to our attention Damon. smile.gif Regards, Walter
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#25 Sig

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Posted 15 December 2004 - 09:23 AM

QUOTE (Murray @ Dec 15 2004, 03:09 AM)
I saw another mint 1921 gun that still had the original nickle plated oil can in the stock complete with vertigris.!!! Never been touched. sad.gif


Murray just exactly what is "vertigris"?
How much were they asking for this particular gun?
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#26 gijive

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Posted 15 December 2004 - 09:41 AM

QUOTE (Sig @ Dec 15 2004, 09:23 AM)
Murray just exactly what is "vertigris"?

Mike,

Verdigris is a green waxy crust that forms on copper, bronze and brass when it is old and exposed to air for a period of many years. It is common on surplus WWII equipment that has bronze or brass parts. Metal studs and snaps on leather holsters, eyelets on web belts, etc.

The nickel colored oiler in the buttstock of the gun Murray descibes probably has some on it due to it's age. In other words, it sat untouched in the butt stock for many years without being removed and wiped down or cleaned.

Verdigris can be easily removed with fine steel wool and/or certain solvents.
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#27 Sig

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Posted 15 December 2004 - 10:07 AM

gijive
thanks
sounds like a nice gun then
michael
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#28 sten guy

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Posted 15 December 2004 - 12:35 PM

I understand that the die-hard Colt Thompson collector would turn a blind eye toward a refurbished gun....But it seems through my searches for Thompsons that a great majority have been messed with to some extent.. Some more than others.... Given the amount of transferable guns ( less than 2000 ??), and the amount of buyers, I wouldn't advise anyone to jump all over a re-blue , but be advised they might be more common than not. A few years ago people would have fell over dead to think someone could actually sell a re-blue for 15 K let alone more.

I have seen few that didn't have substantial finish wear or bulged barrel , mis-matched internals. Heck- one of the dealers that transferred mine even commented that my gun had the wrong fire control levers ( knurled ). He showed me his "original mint " gun that had smooth fire control levers....

STEN
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#29 AZDoug

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 12:38 AM

QUOTE (sten guy @ Dec 15 2004, 10:35 AM)
He showed me his "original mint " gun that had smooth fire control levers....


he must have bought the original *mint* gun with smooth levers from JC Earl.

Doug
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#30 colt21a

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 01:43 PM

mostly all colt thompson's have been messed with from owner to owner.....unless you get one direct from p.d. today..and even those are messed with, the chicago thompson's have some replaced wood and internal parts also...and some of the new york drums went home long ago.and replaced with bridgeport's...

also all the thompson's that alot of dealer/collector's had over the last forty year's...have been played with.enhanced part's redone wood.touch up reblue.rebarrelled.

new bolt's, actuator's.and the biggest of all, the "WOOD''

i have had very few colt thompson's that had been true one owner gun's....probably about 15 out of over 100 colt's...

even vollmer's had problem's...i checked most of them out year's ago...roger's another story,and c.earl's...another tale for another time...

i never did bother with a few other collection's upon first glance on some after redone wood and reblue's i quit looking for the pearl...the first five {gun's} told the story "when they stated all original just fired maybe once....wink!!

so guy's i am sure you all have the best of the best....just remember it might not be what its all cracked up to be!!

and with the current "T.G." at it's highest point in thompson history.......watch out!!

everybody who own's or sell's a thompson.is not the know it all,ask them this..how many have you owned and sold???that will tell you alot..have fun with this stuff..

take care,ron
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#31 sten guy

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 09:42 PM

I feel that if you are interested enough in the Thompson gun to shell out enough money to buy one ( all variations are expensive in my opinion), you should feel fortunate.

Fortunate that you can afford such a toy and also fortunate that you have found one...Whether Re-blued - -- 99% original --- or even calico..

STEN cool.gif
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#32 TD.

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 11:48 PM

Ron,
Well stated...and so true. Thank-you for your insight. We would all be wise to pay attention.

sten guy,
I agree. And if the prices continue to climb, you will see far less fortunate buyers.

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#33 anticus

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Posted 18 December 2004 - 11:11 AM

Here's food for thought-when does a Thompson , or any other functional collectable firearm, become too valuable to shoot ?
Original parts break and wear out, original finishes on metal and wood are marred and this inevitably affects the value of the piece.
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#34 TNKen

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Posted 18 December 2004 - 11:10 PM

Good question, and the answer to me would seem a variable of several things. The initial reason for the purchase would seem foremost. Investment vs. hobby vs. recreational shooter vs. avid shooter. I would say true investment quality guns are never fired. From Hobby on down, they get fired, just in varying amounts.

I would classify myself as a hobby shooter. Outside of an occasional blast in the back yard, to the range probably 3 or 4 times a year.

I just picked up a neat MG-42. Post war, dated 1964, in .308, came out of the Colt armory. Will I shoot it, yes. A lot, probably not. It had been shot when I got it, and I fired it as well. I will contact a seller of new MG-42 parts and put as many of those on the gun as possible so as not to wear the originals.

Now, what about an FG-42, or the Dillinger Thompson? Probably not, but it also would depend on the quality of the firearm and whether it has been fired before or not.

I would also say that financial resources probably play a part in here somewhere. Many folks would buy a NIB M-16 as a collectors item, while others would buy it because they can and don't mind shooting a NIB NFA firearm. I personally put a sear in a NIB SP-89 and have dumped a few mags through it as well.

Good question, I think the motivation of the individual and financial resources would probably play a large role in the decision.

Ken
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#35 colt21a

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Posted 19 December 2004 - 12:16 AM

another chime in...i know many collector's who have what you speak.and nope they don't shoot them,even some that have double's of certain model's...

why take the chance of blowing the barrel out of a mint fg-42 or colt monitor.....even rich people don't like to lose money..in fact because of that, they feel a social status that they should pay less for thing's....{if they can get away with it}

yet i know a man in az. who yearly take's out his original remington 1917 watercooled and run's belts through it...i asked him why??his answer,i paid about $3,000.00 for it twenty year's ago.and i never plan on selling it,and if i ever do sell it.if somebody even give's me $5,000.00 for it i made money......

and this guy is worth a few million.so he can well afford not to get greedy.so he shoot's it...

would some here that post and read on this board.open up the check book,cut a check for $30,000.00 for a nice 98% colt 21a and dump some C-drum's through it.

and let five guy's on the range handle it...and flip the rocker's,and keep cockin the actuator and slammin it forward. i don't think so...most rich people do take good care of the stuff that they own....heck i can't stand it when people wanted to jack the slide on some of my early 1911 colt's...

so to each his own.you will get all kinds of opinion's...

why do you think we have museum's..for shooter's??no to preserve what is left for future generation's.. this country destroyed and wasted enough history since 1945..{THE DESTROY MENTALITY}

how many sherman tank's, b-17's,p-38's,and don't even mention b-24 liberator's that are left...and the original gun's they had..

so keep shootin shooter's.thats the fun of it..i do also...

however a safe queen or two is nice to have also...funny thing i still keep trying to buy them from collector's....and even tho they won't shoot them,they ain't sellin either.

and thats the name of that tune.

wink!! take care,ron
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#36 philasteen

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Posted 19 December 2004 - 12:41 AM

To shoot or not shoot the FG-42, that's the question.

I almost got to the point where I could. I was going to buy another FG-42 in Argentina and part it so I would have a spare barrel as well as everything else. Unfortunately the deal fell through.

Without it, I don't dare put a round down the barrel, so I will just fondle it lovingly for now. Original spare parts are pretty much non-existent.

(If anyone wants to trade a Colt or two and a big pile of cash for it, let me know)
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#37 philasteen

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Posted 19 December 2004 - 12:42 AM

A much nicer sounding Colt went across strumgewehr today for exactly half the price.
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#38 John Jr

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Posted 19 December 2004 - 01:05 AM

There are always these fools looking to over sell what they have. Its not fair market, it stupidity.


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