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1927 Convertion Value


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#1 tcgoll

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 10:41 PM

What is the value of a convertion of a 1927a1 using the Broadhead convertion kit to a selectfire with 10.5" barrel and detachable stock? Would it be about what a WH 28 runs more? less? also reliability of this convertion. Thanks for any help.
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#2 TD.

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 10:45 PM

I think less...a lot less.
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#3 LIONHART

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 11:11 PM

I think the Pins were selling for around $4500.00, and the '27A1 Gun at about $700-800.00 Used. Depending on how the Stock was attached give or take. If a '28 Frame was used, than add for that amount. Depending on the make of the Barrel? Don't know if that would really matter. I wouldn't think so. I would say around $6000.00 for the package as you described it.
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#4 Norm

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 03:54 AM

Tcgoll,

All of the "full-auto" value is in the firing pin itself. The rest of the gun (as far quality is concerned) is what you put into the gun.

The last firing pins sold through Western Firearms in TX sold for $4,500 each. They would probably fetch a little more now with the "Thompson greed" factor added to them.

I have only seen two offers on these pins (from individuals.) One guy was willing to trade a NIB, full size Vector UZI SMG for one of these firing pins. I seriously considered trading, but I had already begun to have a VERY nice 27A1 built for my conversion pin.

The other offer was one I saw on Strum. A guy had one installed in a 27A1 with a selector switch. I don't know if the selector switch was just for looks, or if it actually functioned. He wanted almost $10,000 for the gun. sad.gif

The positive side to having the gun built was interaction between board members (a lot of guys on this board have worked on this project gun.) Also, this gun will probably be as reliable as any Thompson (with a fixed firing pin) can be.

These converted guns also run VERY fast; like a MAC-10 .45 caliber.

I bought one mainly because of price. $4,500 for the firing pin and almost the same amount for a custom gun (parts and labor) puts the cost of my gun close to a WH 28 price. Add the $1,200 for accessories, and it's a $10,000 gun. ohmy.gif

As far as reliability, I would say, at best, a little less than a 28. It is a fixed firing pin setup, so there is always a greater chance of a misfire. How well the gun is built and maintained will usually determine how well it will work.

If the firing pin was installed as it was made to be (without any modifications to the gun other than putting the pin the bolt and removing the disconector) the reliability is probably low. The point at which the firing pin catches the sear will wear out very quickly.

Hope this helps,

Norm.

Lionhart, I think my 27A1 will be worth as much as the firing pin! laugh.gif
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#5 Kevin

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 10:15 AM

Norm, when do we get to see the finnished product?
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#6 Norm

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 10:27 AM

Kevin,

It shouldn't be to much longer. It is in the final stages of being assembled and tested.

Norm

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#7 SecondAmend

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 07:34 PM

Don't know for sure, but I believe the pin and gun are considered separate for ATFE purposes. So you've got an SBR as well as pin to transfer in this particular scenario.

Also, if that pin ever breaks, you have a very expensive small paper weight which is virtually unreplaceable, though perhaps repairable depending on what the breakage is.
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#8 LIONHART

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 07:52 PM

Yes, and No. Though time is limited, Norm can explain the details on how all that works out.
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#9 Norm

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 09:21 PM

SecondAmend (and others),

The firing pin itself is the "machine gun" in the eyes of the ATF. The gun that it is used in can take on ANY characteristics that a registered receiver machine gun can have (short barrel, under 26" overall length, etc.) without having to register the gun itself as an SBR. The catch is that the gun can only remain that way as long as the firing pin is in (with) the gun!

This means that if the firing pin gets separated from the gun, the gun must "lose" the other NFA characteristics (short barrel, etc.) UNLESS you have had the gun itself registered as an SBR.

My gun is not registered as an SBR; that is ok because I have a registered firing pin in it. Now, lets say my gun needs work (we'll say the barrel needs to be changed.) Since I want a pro to change it, I'm going to ship it off to a gunsmith. Since my gun is not a registered SBR, I MUST send the registered firing pin with it. If I do not, it is an illegal weapon.

There is a gray area. Some ask, "Is it an illegal gun if you remove the pin to clean the gun?" No, you can clean the gun.

This would be illegal though: If you remove the firing pin and put it in another gun, even if the (non-registered) SBR is still right there with you. Once it is in another gun, your (unregistered) SBR becomes illegal.

This type of NFA firearm setup is sometimes known as a gun being "married" to a registered conversion device.

I have a letter from the ATF explaining most of this.

If the pin breaks, it can be repaired; it can not be replaced.

Norm
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#10 TD.

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 09:41 PM

Norm,
This is excellent information. I suggest asking Nick to add it to the FAQ section. It certainly answers a lot of questions.

Quick Question: Does anyone know how many of these registered firing pins are in existence?

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#11 Norm

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 09:59 PM

TD,

About ten of them were registered before may 19, 1986 aand are transferable.

Mine is Serial Number 3. wink.gif

Norm
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#12 John Jr

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 10:15 PM

I saw one at Norrell's house once. It was in one of those fugly semi auto jobbers. Nasty!!


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#13 LIONHART

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 10:17 PM

There was also a rumor that several Modified M1 Bolts (along with other parts needed for the Conversion) for the '27 were registered prior to '86 as well. I've never seen any though..Nor do I know just how many were manufactured. Thanks Norm for taking the time! This same situation applies to HK Sears, Ect. It's a commonly asked one, and can be confusing to many...
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#14 Norm

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 10:35 PM

I had spoken to someone (via email) that had a registered converted WH 27A1.

The receiver was registered, and somehow they had modified a 28 bolt and acuator to fit in the gun. The receiver had been modified also.

I would like to see that gun to see how it was done.

Norm

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#15 SecondAmend

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Posted 23 January 2005 - 10:24 AM

Norm,

Thanks for taking the time to elaborate on the details.
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