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Cussin' Kahr


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#1 85th Engineer

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 06:54 PM

mad.gif I purchased a Kahr 27a1 a couple of years ago and put about 200 flawless functioning rounds through it before deciding to send it to PK to dress it up a bit with a shortened barrel, bolt lock, and paddle safety. I was well pleased with the product I had received from Kahr in both function and finish. And even more pleased when I got it back from Pk with the more original looking alterations.

Since getting it back from Pk, I've had it out 4 times. The first time it functioned as it always had, flawlessly. The second time I took it out, it broke an extractor. OK, that's just one of those things that can happen. I ordered another extractor and with advice from PK (who's always willing to help) I managed to remove the broken extractor and install the new one.

I took it out again to test the new extractor and noticed that the trigger felt like it had some additional activity going on during the trigger pull. It felt as though the trigger mechanism would occasionally catch on something, or was experiencing some increased friction. I took it apart at the range and could see the new work done by PK, and nothing looked broken either on the Kahr or PK parts. I fired a few more rounds and was at least satisfied with the extractor, but the trigger was making me a bit anxious.

When I got home I planned on taking it apart for cleaning and further inspection. I'd left the bolt locked open from the last fired round and so I released it and attempted to pull the trigger. The trigger wouldn't budge. It was locked in place solid. Have you tried to disassemble a semi-Thompson with the hammer cocked? I don't think it can be done! Here I was with a jammed trigger and no way to disassemble the gun to see what was wrong. I struggled with it for a few hours and gave up.

Picking it up a few days later, I decided to give it a try. To my surprise the trigger pulled and released the hammer. I field stripped it and again could see nothing wrong. After cleaning it I reassembled it and the trigger worked fine.

Took it out to the range today and it was again performing flawlessly and went through 50 rounds with out a hiccup. I loaded up a fresh mag and attempted to fire and the trigger wouldn't budge. That's when the cussin' started. Not knowing what was wrong I cussed Kahr and then PK and then Kahr and then PK and then PK and then Kahr. I took it down again and this time I caught a glimpse of something moving down inside the lower assembly behind the trigger. I held it upside down and started bumping it with my hand and out fell the front 1/4" of the broken extractor which I had assumed was ejected out of the gun when it broke. huh.gif

My apologies to Kahr and then PK and then PK and Kahr. At least nobody was around when I was cussin'. The 27a1 functioned flawlessly the rest of the day.
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#2 PK.

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 07:27 PM

Geez! You scared me to almost to death! ohmy.gif

I hope everyone reads all the way to the bottom of your post.

Thanks for the kind words, glad everything is working out well (with the exception of the extractor).


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#3 mp40

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 07:54 PM

PK,

I have heard far too many storys about breaking extractors in the Kahr(ap) "Tompsons" for my liking...I know that Kahr was (or still is) using G.I. extractors and unless they have somehow run accross batches of bad G.I. extractors, there must be another reason for them to break.

I am just thowing these out there to see what you think.

1. Badly machined (out of spec?) extractor channel too deep, too shallow or nominal depth?

2. Roughly machined or undersized chamber?

3. Head space issues?

4. Use of steel cartridge cases?

5. Improperly cleaning the chamber?

6. Improperly heat treated Kahr manufactured extractors?

7. Extractors "made in India" or China!

8. In the incredibly rare category: Bad G.I. extractors?

Any ideas?
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#4 philasteen

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 09:03 PM

In fairness to PK, you should change the thread title for those who don't take time to read the thread - otherwise it might look like you are besmirching his stellar work.
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#5 full auto 45

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 09:06 PM

QUOTE
mp40 Posted on Jan 25 2005, 07:54 PM
1. Badly machined (out of spec?) extractor channel too deep, too shallow or nominal depth?
2. Roughly machined or undersized chamber?
3. Head space issues?
4. Use of steel cartridge cases?
5. Improperly cleaning the chamber?
6. Improperly heat treated Kahr manufactured extractors?
7. Extractors "made in India" or China!
8. In the incredibly rare category: Bad G.I. extractors?
Any ideas?


All the above.
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#6 Dylan

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 09:10 PM

I've had my Kahr 1927A1 for just under a year now, fired over 3300 rounds since I first got it. In that time I've broken 2 extractors (which Kahr quickly replaced both times). The first wasn't marked and broke after 1500 rounds, the second was a Savage extractor that broke after only 600 rounds. Both broke when I was using steel cased ammo.
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#7 Grey Crow

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 09:57 PM

I had similar problems, blamed them on Wolf ammo. I had no idea what had happened other than the gun ceased to extract and function. I field stripped it at the range and found that the front half of the extractor ended up inside the receiver just under the bolt. Unfortunately I had no spare ones with me but 5 more at home in the spare parts box.

While PK had my 27, he resized the chamber of the new 10.5" bbl. a little as well as adjusted for head space. He also polished the exterior as it was like a cactus, this one came from Numrich Arms.

If I recall mil spec is a little larger than what industry standards are for the .45 round. A little extra room in that area really assists with feeding, and seating of a cartridge.

The extractor is probably the weakest link, I guess that's why in the good ole days they included an extra in the spare parts kits. Luckily its an issue that is easily dealt with.

After shooting up the balance of the 1k of Wolf, I now only shoot brass cased ammo, even if it costs a bit more.
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#8 Sgt

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 07:22 AM

Engineer--
Sounds like you can still cuss Kahr. I would give them the blame of the broken extractor.
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#9 Merry Ploughboy

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 09:50 AM

I'd cuss Wolf ammo also. I've tried the 9 mm stuff (prior to owning the TSMG) and the only pistol it worked reliably in was the Sig P226 so I quit buying Wolf ammo years ago.

From what I read on the Bower's Subguns board, steel case ammo tends to be rough on MG extractors.

MP
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#10 Phil Askew

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 10:33 PM

Hey, you guys should have plenty of extra extractors on hand! I still have some Auto-Ordnance packs of 25. They are in the original wrapper dated 10/42. Buy in bulk and save$$$$$$$$$$ Send naked pic of girlfriend or wife or both and receive 10% discount!
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#11 Motorcar

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 10:49 PM

I've got 3,000 through mine. Has a GI marked extractor from Kahr...I took it out and looked after the first 1,000. Still running fine even though I have a couple of spares for the day. All brass ammo...all the time! wink.gif
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#12 bneer72

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 01:50 AM

Where can one get a few spare extractors reasonbly for a semi kahr. Just in case! I just purchased it and have seen some of the problems with these guns. My West Hurly M1 semi didn't have nearly the problems I have read about others experiences.
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#13 Phil Askew

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 06:12 AM

I have NOS WWII extractors $10 ea includes shipping. Hurry while supplies last!!!!!!!!
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#14 TSMGguy

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 01:17 PM

PhilOhio just might be onto something there.

We are cautioned not to make a habit of removing the extractor each time the gun is cleaned, but since I occasionally shoot original corrosive GI ball, there is no choice but to remove and clean.

I insert a small flat bladed screwdriver (old, somewhat soft, and not chromed) under the extractor hook and press it both outward and upward while using the rim around the bolt face as a fulcrum. The extractor begins to move out of its retaining recess when just enough outward pressure is applied, and no more.

For reassembly, I slide the extractor into its groove, invert the whole assembly, and rest the extractor on the surface of a wooden bench while applying downward and outward pressure. The extractor neatly slides home when it's ready. I've never had to replace the extractor on either TSMG.

If an extractor were bent to the point where it was fatigued, would it not also start causing failures to extract before it gave up the ghost and broke? Is the extractor channel on the Kahr bolts too deep, causing some battering of the extractor before it snaps over the case rim? I don't know.

The original GI extactors appear to be made of high quality tempered spring steel, and should otherwise last indefinately.

I've fired quite a lot of steel cased ball ammo, and have had no problems. The original blued finish on the extractor will wear off where it contacts the steel case rims, unlike brass. I don't see this as damage, though. Brass cases have been known to burst as well, probably after being reloaded too many times. Steel never will, but then again, it isn't reloadable. You takes your pick.

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#15 LIONHART

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 01:43 PM

I still contend that something other than the use of the Wolf Steel Cased Ammunition is to be blamed. I'd still be cussing Kahr at this point. It's my belief that the Chamber Area/Extractor Channel on some Kahr's are a bit undersized, thus the reason why some Guns will break their Extractors while cycling, and others don't. Obviously the Extractor is hitting somewhere, either on the very front end/corner or side of the Extractor to be causing these breakage's.
I would start there in determining if this is indeed the cause of the problems. I have heard of this problem in Kahr Guns whether Steel Cased or Brass Cased Ammunition is utilized by the Shooter. Moreover, I have heard the Wolf Ammo has a very bad reputation for breaking 1911 Extractors in a very short amount of time.

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#16 The1930sRust

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 08:30 PM

QUOTE (philasteen @ Jan 25 2005, 09:03 PM)
In fairness to PK, you should change the thread title for those who don't take time to read the thread - otherwise it might look like you are besmirching his stellar work.

Well? We're waiting!
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#17 Grey Crow

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 09:37 PM

I placed the bug in a few ears to perhaps play a little with the idea of making a pivot and spring affair for the Thompson.

It all depends on if there is enough metal in the bolt to allow such a modification.

I for one do not have the equipment, nor the $$ if I mess up the bolt I have.

I've only lost one extractor in 3 years, and a little under 2000 rounds of ammo.
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