24 replies to this topic

[Tracker]

How can I tell the difference between an original 28 Finned & threaded TMSG barrel and a West Hurley barrel? Were all the originals stamped with a Manufacturers letter?

[gijive]

Hi,

I haven't seen very many West Hurley barrels, but one way to tell the difference is that WWII GI barrels usually have 28 or 29 cooling fins, not counting the large flange at the breech end. The new manufactured barrels I have seen have approx. 27 fins. Generally, all WWII GI barrels shouls have a manufacturer's code on the flange, a "P" proof or a witness mark. The GI fins are usually somewhat squared off and the new barrels have more rounded fins. If the finish is too shiny and new looking it's probably a new barrel.

[PK.]

The NAC barrels are not marked, all GI barrels are marked as GIJive describes except I am not sure what you mean by "witness mark". This usually refers to a barrel/receiver alignment mark which was not present on military guns with which I am familiar. The Colts are the only guns I know of that had such a witness mark. Further thoughts?

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Savage G.I. barrels have an "S", "P", and a "0" with line up mark on the first ring. The West Hurley barrels have thicker fins and no marks. If you mean original as "Colt", then there are no marks other than the line up mark with thinner and more rounded fins, though the degree of roundness and thickness depends on whether the barrel is for a 21A , or a 28 Navy.

[SecondAmend]

My civilian (police) market Savage '28A1 (with U.S. and A1 buffed off, serial no. 304XXX) has a finned barrel with the "witness mark" on the flange.

[PK.]

SecondAmend, is there a corresponding mark on the receiver?

[LIONHART]

FWIW, Colt Thompsons with Serial Numbers below 1000, will have a Serial # on the Barrel.

[LIONHART]

Also, in the past I've owned '28 WW2 Barrels that had the Witness Mark, and I just sold two WW2 M1 Barrels (Savage) that also had the Mark...Thought I'd pass it along.

[PK.]

Let’s be certain we talking about the same mark; it is a line running parallel to the bore across the whole width (or most of it anyway) of the flange on the barrel.

[LIONHART]

Yup, that's the one I'm talking about PK. Better yet, the same type of Mark that you did for me on Project X. I always refered to them as Alignment Marks. Never heard "Witness" Mark before.

[PK.]

Ok, I am not sure what is going on there, I have never seen an M1 with a witness mark that I hadn’t applied myself, nor a 28A1.

I do not believe that any military TSMG left the factory with a witness mark. The only scenario I can visualize as an exception would be that a particular gun required rework for some reason prior to being accepted. The only reason to apply one is if there was intention to remove the barrel and then subsequently reinstall it on the same gun. That’s why Colt used both serial numbers and witness marks; to allow fitting, disassembly, finishing and subsequent reassemble. This was very common in the firearms industry world wide in earlier times. But I believe the military guns were assembled from pre-finished parts and that there would be no reason to witness mark them.

Now, that said, I commonly apply witness marks to any barrel of any gun with features that require a specific alignment (such as fixed sights) and needs to be removed and then reassembled. It is possible that GI armorors would do the same, although I’d bet if they pulled a barrel it was going into the scrap pile.

So, do military barrels exist with witness marks? Of course, some were applied by my self and many others working on them, I suppose.

I will admit to not having seen a broad spectrum of NOS parts barrels (those I have seen were not witness marked) and would love to hear from those who have had an opportunity to handle many dozens of the same. Phil? Doug?

[LIONHART]

All I can say is, the Barrels that I've had (Mentioned above) were obviously take offs, but whether or not the Marks were applied when the Guns were made, or during an arsenal rebuild I haven't a clue..Since my Barrels had British Proofs, did the English apply the Marks? If that were the case, when did they do it? Would seem foolish to apply the Marks on fresh Guns, unless they applied the Mark during a rebuild.

[DEC46]

PK, My 1928A1 Thompson has the witness mark on the receiver and on the barrel. I also have a spare barrel that I took out of the original GI wrap and it also has the witness mark in line with a 0 inbetween the first two fins. It also has an S and a P stamped in the first fin.

[Matt in Pdx]

I have a blue finned barrel that I aquired at a show some time back. No manufacture codes or P. It has 29 to 30 fins (last one faint) not counting the thick ring next to the chamber. The fins are more rounded and thinner than the ones on my Savage 28A1. It does have a witness mark. I always assumed it was some commercial barrel like a WH. Never even thought that it might be a Colt. Any other way to tell if is a Colt. No serial #s.

By the way - first post - Great form!

[full auto 45]

Ok, looked at my stuff.
My smooth barrel threaded for comp new in wrapping has a "o" and an alinement mark.
My AO Bridgeport M1 has smooth barrel with "p" and a alinement mark on barrel and a mark on reciever to line them up. The M1 was reworked at Mt. Rainier Arsenal.
My WH has no mark on the fins or barrel or reciever.

[Roger in AZ]

The barrel on my Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport Conn., 1928AC has a O and a S stamped on it near the barrel/receiver alignment marks and there are 28 fins. The barrel on my Colt 1928 Navy Overstamp has no markings on it except for the barrel/receiver alignment mark. Also there are 28 fins on the Colt barrel and the fins are thinner than the fins on the Bridgeport gun.

Hope this helps

Roger

[LIONHART]

Just looked at one more WW2 M1 Barrel. This one DOES NOT have a Mark. The overall Condition is "Good", and does have British Proofs as well. So the question is, when did the Marks on Guns appear? Before a rebuild or after? Or was it both?

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Well, if an alignment mark appears on a Savage G.I. finned barrel found new in the wrapper, as is the one I have, that pretty much solves the riddle.

If a 1921 A Colt with a serial number under 1000 was fitted with a second model Cutt's compensator by Auto Ord in Hartford, and updated with heavy acutator to become an overstamp Navy, the original barrel would have been changed, and the serial number would no longer be present.

[PK.]

I have two M1 barrels in the shop right now, both have all the proper marks but no witness marks.

In a review of American Thunder I note two 28’s. The first on pg. 47 is a fined barrel and shows marks on both the barrel and receiver (it is interesting that they don’t line up however), and on pg. 53 is a smooth barrel with no marks on either barrel or receiver.

I would really like to hear from the NOS parts guys.

[gijive]

Hi Paul,

Attached is a picture of two NOS Savage made 1928 barrels unwrapped from the cosmolene. Both are threaded for the compensator and have no groove for the compensator pin, so they haven't been on a gun. Hope this helps.