31 replies to this topic

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

QUOTE

One more point. If you use replacement parts on a Colt you further erode the value of the gun anyway. It would no longer be a correct example, but a mixmaster. (There are no such things as "Original" Colt TSMG's, they were all examples of number 26, the Original Original!)

JJ


That is you usual convoluted interpretation of "original" that only has cache in wanna be circles. There are prototypes and there are factory originals. The two are not in conflict with one another. Since Colt TSMG's are not Luger's with every part numerically matched, parts not original to the gun as it left the factory in 21-22 such as Remington wood, actuator, bolt, lower internals, etc, do not devalue the weapon since there is no way to prove when they were inserted into, or on, the weapon. They merely need to be originally produced parts for that make and model. Even the barrels were replaced after 1932 when TSMG's were sent back for, or delivered with, 2nd pattern Cutts.

[John Jr]

QUOTE

That is you usual convoluted interpretation of "original" that only has cache in wanna be circles.

Those are facts. Like it or not there is nothing special about Colt's mass produced copy of the originals. A prototype is a gun or two, not 40 or perhaps even more...

A mixmaster gun is not worth what an untampered with example is worth. You have said this yourself. A trained eye knows the difference, just ask Ron K (colt21a).

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

If the prototype were merely duplicates that incorporated the same features it would not be a prototype by definition. No two of the prototypes are identical as far as their internal mechanisms. There was the "Persuader," designed at the Warner Swasey Plant, and which bears little resemblance to the TSMG that was eventually manufactured. Then there were a series of "Annihilator's" that had three generations of design. These all had offset actuators and no provision for a butt stock or rear sights. Some of these models only operated in full auto mode and were designed to function with only 11 parts. So the model of 1921, as manufactured by Colt, was indeed original in the final design in that it had a butt stock, rear sights, select fire, felt oiler system, and different actuator that was no longer offset. It was not a copy of the "Persuader," or the "Annihilators." or the "1919." That is why it was called the "1921."

Naturally by your own limited understanding of what constitutes an original design, you would no doubt argue that the only original Colt TSMG would be serial number 41 and all the rest of the 14,999 that came off the production line would then be copies.

I know all of this is frustrating when you consider the truly mass produced 2 million Savage/AO TSMG's produced during WWII.

[AZDoug]

QUOTE (pca16 @ Feb 17 2005, 02:59 PM)

the complete lower at 2500 with correct nickel parts, ,complete bolt, spring,buffer,breach oiler,1500,

Really? This much loot for those parts?

I am not doubting you, but I am sitting here, incredulous that the Colt, original complete lower(sans buttstock), SN 12571, that I use as a paperweight could go for that much. Amazing, most expensive paperweight that i have ever owned; of course, it didn't cost that much 10 years ago.

I did score an original Colt 1921 bolt (absolutely, guaranteed original, I triple checked it with a jewelers loupe, calipers,and a GI bolt for comparison) at the last SAR show, before I spent the $100 for it; and i thought that $100 was pricey...

I guess I must be cheap. For that kind of money, I would be tempted to part with the lower, but then again, having the lower as a paperweight has some cache.

Doug

[LIONHART]

QUOTE

To say that the stroke of a pen could render these firearms worthless, as in they could no longer be bought/sold by private parties or dealers

Could happen. Look, IF such legislation were to pass outlawing private ownership, that $35,000.00 Colt '21 would become worthless overnight. The Politicians don't give a damn what Johnny Public paid for their Colt, or whatever. These guns would become contraband, and in the eyes of the Anti-Gunners, all Machine Guns, regardless of Make are evil. Some actually believe such laws will never pass, as they somehow believe spending an absurd amount of money on a Machine Gun protects them and their hobby from such laws. Sorry to say, it could certainly happen, and I'm sure that one day, it will...And when it does, don't expect the Government to reimburse you.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Devlin,
Is that why you decided to reside in a state that already imposes these Draconian laws against civilian NFA ownership in order that you would never be tempted into such folly? Caution is always the by word of gun owners when there is any mention of government regulation. But why are the most paranoid defenders of the 2nd Amendment, who squawk like "chicken Little" of government confiscation of full auto weapons, the most strident by those who do not even posses them?

Those who rationalize that because the ATF has personal information about who NFA owners are and where the weapons are located, that the day of reckoning where wholesale confiscation (with the added cherry on top being no reimbursement of market value) is not only an irresistible lure for the government, but that it is immanent, are no doubt using The Da Vinci Code to establish this exact date of perfidy.

Conceivably,, the collector who owns 25 or 30 NFA items purchased 20-30 years ago when prices where relatively "cheap," would be out the same investment as the guy who recently purchased 3 or 4 full auto weapons today. No bout the collector who dared commit any revenue to his hobby a quarter of a century ago was plagued by the same vitriolic warnings of invariably throwing their money down a rat hole since confiscation was only a matter of time.

Now that these NFA items have swelled in value, confiscation must already be in the works. Seems these scenarios should be told around a campfire in Dudelytown, Connecticut for greatest effect.

[colt21a]

paperwork,confiscation,secret agent's,da- vanchi,furra roar-ri, and nostrodamus can't take them away from us all............

only one thing can do that!! DEATH!

so sell all the part's gun's and whatever you can get and have fun.....the clock tick's....

so enjoy it all............before the hammer drop's.

or the reaper sweep's...that long cold hand..............

take care,ron

[jim]

All investments come with risk. Stocks, gold, silver, even buying land can be very risky. When your land value goes up what does the government do? They raise your property taxes! They can regulate the value out of your land overnight, just ask landowners in King County here in Washington state. Anyone who owns acreages in the size of 5 acres may no longer use half of it! This means you can't even graze cattle on it and this "law" was passed at the County level!
The way I see it, machine guns have the best investment history of any of the above. Transferable machine guns have NEVER dropped in value, they just keep going up. No investment is an iron clad guarantee but I don't know of any other investments with the kind of track record of constant gain with no losses that m.g's have.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Phil,
Devlin did indeed say, "it could certainly happen, and I'm sure that one day, it will." That doesn't have the ring of ambiguity to me. I never understood the concept of being involved in a hobby, collection, or avocational pursuit primarily for the investment potential. But to each this own. Those who are compelled to play roulette with their money on their hobby do so at their own peril.

I fail to see the value in the "sky is falling" theorists, pundits, gurus, investment councilors, or modern day NFA Nostradamus prophets to inspire fear in the hearts of collectors. If this is something that is out of the hands of the average citizen, then all the hand wringing won't change the inevitable. And if it is in the power of the average citizen to insure this doesn't happen, then it isn't a fait acompli. Either way, life is too short to get excised over the prospect.

[LIONHART]

IF Arthur, by chance that Confiscation by unjust laws never do take effect, we must still be worried by the possibilities of Armageddon....

No, I'm not a prophet, but someday, and who knows when it may occur, I do believe an outright ban on the ownership of not only Machine Guns but everything in between, will take place for a more secure Nation, in which everyone will be safe in their beds, and the Terrorists are locked away. Afterall, do you not want to do your part in complying with the US Department Of Homeland Security's Laws, should they be enacted?

Your right Arthur, MG's by civilians are no longer allowed here, unless Legally registered prior to 1994 for those who were granted permission to buy them, and for those Firearms grandfathered due to the 1934 and 1968 Amnesty periods. Or unless one is a Federally Licensed Class 2/SOT.

There is certainly NO guarantee that the types of Firearms we own today, will be legal tomorrow.

[John Jr]

I still say that damn parts kit is overpriced!

[colt21a]

and i second that,however somebody this very minute is writing the check...and mailing it off....for that box of part's..........for me for $6,000.00 i need something that can at least save a life or shoot........

kinda like the sear thing.wear it around the neck like jewelry,heck gold plate it for pete's sake..for what they ask for them...oh!wait!! they don't shoot either......piece of metal /w/paper attached...wink!! take care,ron