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C&r Laws


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#1 giantpanda4

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 07:24 AM

I was at a club meeting last night, and met a retired MSP cop. His position on "the law" was that Michigan does not allow full auto ownership. Period. mad.gif

Funny, I was granted a C&R license from the Feds. And in getting my 28 I had the County Sherriff sign my paperwork. None of them said full auto is not allowed here. The Sherriff said he had signed a few of these over the years. And I know of a former deputy that owns a former County 21.

Does anyone here know what is published that states C&R (and I imagine C2 and C3) license holders are eligible to posess full autos in MI?

Are there the same kind of law interpetations going on in other states???

Thanks for the help.
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#2 First Sergeant

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 08:44 AM

The state of Michigan only permits C&R full-auto weapons. I purchased a Reising from a C3 dealer in Michigan who can only deal in those.

I plan on retiring to Michigan and discovered their law by chance. Since then I've only purchased C&R NFA weapons. I believe Minnesota also has C&R only as well.

If you live in either state you can't go wrong by getting a C&R license and I believe Michigan requires it. It is easy to obtain, $30 for 3 yrs, will save you quite a bit of money and makes it very convenient to buy across state lines.

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#3 full auto 45

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 09:16 AM

here's a list I found.

NFA State listings
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#4 philasteen

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 09:36 AM

The Michigan law is ripe for a court challenge. The text is clear - once you have a federal license (C&R), you can own machineguns. There is nothing in the law about it being restricted to C&R machineguns.
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#5 mp40

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 11:45 AM

Hey Mike,

That's the second list that has incorrect about Washinton state's laws.

We are not allowed anything other than suppressors,aow's and destructive devices. I don't know who makes these lists up (maybe the ATF?) but two of these lists have been wrong this one and autoweapons.com's list.

I wish that someone had been feeding myself and others in this state B.S about full auto possesion. But, sadly,I have seen Washington states rules/regulations no way for me to own them. (unless,I become a dealer)
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#6 giantpanda4

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 03:33 PM

Thanks for all of the info guys.

Sounds like all of the confusion is common with this kind of question.

Maybe our pal Hardrede can chime in with his insights... I know he is in MI too.

For now I will wait until this MSP (ex)cop shows me his written law that says no. Then I guess it is time to test which is right - C&R says OK, MI says no.

Thanks again,


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#7 skoda

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 06:14 PM

Mike,

I'm a Michigander too (yah, I know) , The law says that you have to be federally licensed before you can own a full auto. that's what the law says.

What you are looking for is the attorney general's opinion that says that the state sees a C&R as meeting this requirement but since the C&R license only covers C&R guns then you can only have C&R full autos. There are general full auto dealers in Michigan but you need to have a dealers (or mfg, etc.) license. If you are doing it from home then it's trickier and more expensive.
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#8 Merry Ploughboy

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 07:13 PM

Just goes to show your typical policeman as well as your typical Internet "one size fits all" Website are not knowledgable in the fine point distinctions of the particular laws of a given jursidiction and how the laws have been interpreted by courts or by the executive (in the case of Michigan's MG laws, the state's Attorney General).

How's this, when you have your legal C&R machinegun and copies of your C&R and Form 4, if they arrest you, call Geoff Feiger for a nice false arrest lawsuit.

MP
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#9 giantpanda4

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 07:19 AM

Well, after I informed my Wife about what the ex-cop told me - she flew to the internet and found this:

THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931


750.224 Weapons; manufacture, sale, or possession as felony; exceptions; “muffler” or “silencer” defined.

Sec. 224.

(1) A person shall not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, or possess any of the following:

(a) A machine gun or firearm that shoots or is designed to shoot automatically more than 1 shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.

(cool.gif A muffler or silencer.

© A bomb or bombshell.

(d) A blackjack, slungshot, billy, metallic knuckles, sand club, sand bag, or bludgeon.

(e) A device, weapon, cartridge, container, or contrivance designed to render a person temporarily or permanently disabled by the ejection, release, or emission of a gas or other substance.

(2) A person who violates subsection (1) is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.

(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:

(a) A self-defense spray device as defined in section 224d.

(cool.gif A person manufacturing firearms, explosives, or munitions of war by virtue of a contract with a department of the government of the United States.

© A person licensed by the secretary of the treasury of the United States or the secretary's delegate to manufacture, sell, or possess a machine gun, or a device, weapon, cartridge, container, or contrivance described in subsection (1).

(4) As used in this chapter, “muffler” or “silencer” means 1 or more of the following:

(a) A device for muffling, silencing, or deadening the report of a firearm.

(cool.gif A combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a muffler or silencer.

© A part, designed or redesigned, and intended only for use in assembling or fabricating a muffler or silencer.


History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931 ;-- CL 1948, 750.224 ;-- Am. 1959, Act 175, Eff. Mar. 19, 1960 ;-- Am. 1978, Act 564, Imd. Eff. Dec. 29, 1978 ;-- Am. 1980, Act 346, Eff. Mar. 31, 1981 ;-- Am. 1990, Act 321, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991 ;-- Am. 1991, Act 33, Imd. Eff. June 10, 1991
Constitutionality: The Michigan supreme court held that the statute was not unconstitutionally vague as applied to the defendant in People v. Lynch, 410 Mich. 343, 301 N.W.2d 796 (1981).


© 2004 Legislative Council, State of Michigan



I think this (the exception "(3)©" above) sums it up. It is also listed in the ATF P 5300.5 (2004 - 25th ed.) publication "State Laws and Published Ordinances - Firearms", on p229. This is a book that all of us get as license holders.

So - I had the answer all of the time. Nice to read it on paper - I am keeping a copy of this with the gun now.
Hopefully this clears it up! smile.gif
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#10 cavediver

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 01:49 PM

Mississippi has amended the law to allow silencers also.
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#11 Elbow

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 12:08 PM

The key word is" PERSON ".Meaning just the average Joe.It didn't anything about C&r's or Dealers.I do believe you have to be a dealer or Manufacture of guns.
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#12 PATHFINDER

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 05:10 PM

QUOTE (giantpanda4 @ Mar 4 2005, 07:19 AM)

THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931

Sec. 224.

(1) A person shall not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, or possess any of the following:

(a) A machine gun or firearm that shoots or is designed to shoot automatically more than 1 shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.


(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:

( c ) A person licensed by the secretary of the treasury of the United States or the secretary's delegate to manufacture, sell, or possess a machine gun, or a device, weapon, cartridge, container, or contrivance described in subsection (1).


Constitutionality: The Michigan supreme court held that the statute was not unconstitutionally vague as applied to the defendant in People v. Lynch, 410 Mich. 343, 301 N.W.2d 796 (1981).



Thanks Giant Panda, I can’t find my purple book just now mad.gif
Let’s trim away the excess and get to the meat of the matter.

The exceptions clause (3) says that the clause prohibiting ownership (section 1), , does not apply to those licensed by the Secretary of the Treasury.

With dealer, manufacturer and collector ALL fitting this description of ‘licensed by the Secretary of the Treasury’ all may own NFA weapons in Michigan. But, since it is a felony to use a Class III dealers license to collect, that leaves us only the C&R license here in Michigan to collect with.
Obviously this leaves us only C&R weapons to purchase.
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