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Colt 1921 Question


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#1 guy sajer

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 11:22 AM

I have located a Model 1921 for sale . Original owner since the mid 1970's . Sorry , no pics yet . The gun shows about 85% blue . No pitting . Wood is better than 85% . It has a black "FBI" case which I think was a repro made back in the 70's ? It has an Auto Ord 50rd drum and numerous 20 rd stick mags . Numbers match . I checked with a friend who has a book that shows delivery info . This gun shows that it was shipped from Auto Ordnance to the Columbus , OH Police Dept .

Any thoughts on value . I have been watching for any 21's to change hands , but haven't seen any advertised to get a handle on pricing .

Your opinions are greatly appreciated .
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#2 full auto 45

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 11:35 AM

One sold here (Indy) last month in a 95% (dealer says) condition for $27k. One sold last fall in the box and drum for $13k. It was 98% plus. Very nice. I think if it's a individual, around the $20-22k range max. I know other will disagree, but hey, why spend more then you have to?
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#3 Ron A

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 12:14 PM

A local 28 overstamp just sold for $34,000. I paid $19,500 for a 21 a year ago. - I think the range could be anywhere in that area - just depends on the seller, condition of gun and greed.
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#4 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 02:35 PM

Mike,
A 98% Colt TSMG for $13K? Was that transaction done in a state that has price controls? Or was that percentage really the alcoholic proof of the white lightning the seller was drinking? Any Colt TSMG in that type of condition is going to fetch $30K + if more than two people know about the availability of the item. Surely you must have discovered that even the PD's who still have Colt TSMG's in their arsenals are not laying down for a low ball first offer. Would it not be safe to assume that you wouldn't sell your own WWII TSMG's for anything near that $13K figure.

guy,
Current market sales for a Colt TSMG that you described are selling in the neighborhood of $25K. But one really has to do a careful hands on inspection today before committing to purchase. The 85% rating could be extremely conservative, or way over blown. What is the seller asking?

Ron,
The price range you gave for Colt TSMG's today is indeed based on condition, but as to the motivations of the seller and "greed factor," which has to be a two way street in order to function, would you sell your 1921 for $19,500 now? How about $22K, $25K, or the best offer you could swing for the condition of your TSMG?

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#5 Ron A

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 06:58 PM

You are right Arthur - the 28 overstamp that sold was "real nice" - I hate to use the % that we see so often - or all guns it seems are 98% and we both know thats is most often crap.

My 21 was offered as 85 - 90 % - Its great and maybe is the minds of some would rate that way. Sell my 21 for $19,500 - no way, as you note.

As we both know the price is what the market will pay. I dont think anyone is going to find a thompson in a PD at a steal. Most departments have at least one gun collector who thinks he knows what the gun is worth. Everyone in the world has been looking for PD guns for the last few years - Cox etc; and many offers have been made.

The people in law enforcement I have spoken too have stories of jerks calling and making a low ball offers thinking they have just found an unknown gun that no one is aware exists, and the cheif just fell off the turnip truck.

I sometime think these stories would be interesting to post...
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#6 full auto 45

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 07:01 PM

Beautiful 1921 Colt Thompson and a case and a Colt drum and 4 20 round mags. It is a guy here in Indy and I told him I won't reveal who, but there is a picture of it on my web site. He bought it from a old man wanting the gun to find a good true home. He made lots of money on it. He was happy, not a greedy bastard. He also agreed not to turn around and sale it for a ton of greed. It is listed in Gordons book also by the way. Serial number is 2000.
Sure the current market is in the mid 20's, but not everybody is in it for the money. After all, do you want to have fun with your guns and keep them to pass down, or you wanting to make a fast buck? Like my WWII M1, a very well know class III dealer told the PD they would be luck to get $2500 to $3000 for that gun. Same dealer that has been selling them for $16-$18k for the past 2-3 years. One dealer even offered them $750 for it! Now tell me that isn't sticking in and breaking it off. On both the PD and whom ever they would sale it to.
The next pictures will be better. These are a little grainy.

Gun in case...
user posted image

Gun and 20 round mag.....
user posted image
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#7 Mark Layton

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 12:35 AM

It's a nice gun. Too bad that the pistol grip is not Colt.
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#8 Murray

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 03:57 AM

Mark,
What makes you think the pistol grip is not Colt?
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#9 gijive

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 07:11 AM

QUOTE (Murray @ Mar 28 2005, 03:57 AM)
Mark,
What makes you think the pistol grip is not Colt?

Murray,

I believe he is referring to the rear grip, not the front vertical grip. It doesn't look like a Colt era rear grip to me either. It appears to be a WWII (probably Savage) variety, due to the somewhat larger bulge at the rear and the flat side near the magazine catch. The Colt grips seem to have a more straight profile at the rear and don't exhibit such a distinct edge where the finger groove area meets the side of the grip.

Just an observation from looking at serveral styles of grips over the years. Maybe Mike (Full Auto 45) can check with the owner to determine the origin of the grip?
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#10 guy sajer

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 07:23 PM

I really appreciate the feedback guys . It's very helpful . I have seen it once and will take another look . The price will indeed be around $25k .

Thanks for the drum tip Phil . What markings should I look for . I own the fine Military Thompson book . Would it be in there ?

Thanks
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#11 Mark Layton

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 08:04 PM

Hi Murray.

I concur with what GIJIVE says in his comments on the rear grip.

To his comments, I add that a most telling sign that the pistol grip (rear) is not Colt, is that if you follow the straight edge of the metal (of the trigger frame) under the trigger back to where it meets the wood of the rear pistol grip, that line should continue as a facet of the wood before blending downward. Only Colt wood was shaped like this.

On all other post-Colt Thompson pistol grips, where that line of the metal under the trigger meets the wood, the facet edge of the wood curves downward right away.

Mark
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#12 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 11:06 PM

guy,
Just to clarify Phil's drum info, the Colt numbered, "NO" and no number or "NO" don't have a comma after New York. Also, on the front cover, the "C" in "CAL" underneath "SUBMACHINE" is between the "C" and "H" on the Colt drums. The Colt third drums also have the info:

"FOR 1921 MODEL WIND TO 11 CLICKS"
"FOR 1928 MODEL WIND TO 9 CLICKS"

Gi Jive & Mark, good call on the rear pistol grip. The Colt/Remington grips really stand out from the WWII ones.

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#13 John Jr

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 11:32 PM

QUOTE (Mark Layton @ Mar 27 2005, 11:35 PM)
It's a nice gun. Too bad that the pistol grip is not Colt.

Jus a nice friendly reminder that there is NO SUCH THING as "COLT WOOD." The mass produced production line Thompsons that were produced for Auto Ordnance under contract by colt used wood that came from Remington.

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#14 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 29 March 2005 - 12:46 AM

JJ,
Don't worry. You won't find any wood of any type on your Colt Mattel Toy.

Phil,
The third version Colt drum is the no "NO" marked type. That is there is no serial number and there is not any "NO" mark either.

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