Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

West Hurley 1927 A1


  • Please log in to reply
27 replies to this topic

#1 mmo.85

mmo.85

    New Member

  • Regular Group
  • 2 posts

Posted 02 April 2005 - 09:10 PM

Hi Guys,
I just got a West Hurley 1927 A1. Don't know much about these, but learning fast. I'm trying to date this gun. It says Auto-Ordnance Corp, West Hurley, NY USA Model of 1927 A1 no. 61X. Could this be the serial number? It also says Thompson Semi-Automatic Carbine CAL .45 Automatic Cartridge. I have 2 30 rd stick mags and a drum that I haven't loaded yet to see how many it holds. Was told it holds 100, we'll see after I load it. Any info would be great. Thanks in advance.
  • 0

#2 TD.

TD.

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2911 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 02 April 2005 - 09:24 PM

Hi mmo.85,
Welcome to MachineGunBooks.com. It appears you have an early 1927A1 Thompson. Click on the link below to find serial number information on West Hurley Thompsons.

http://www.nfatoys.c...aug/aug98p3.htm

If you will post the markings on the drum, I am sure someone here can tell you exactly what you have.

  • 0

#3 mmo.85

mmo.85

    New Member

  • Regular Group
  • 2 posts

Posted 02 April 2005 - 10:15 PM

TD.

Thanks for the reply. I'll check out the mag and post what I find.
  • 0

#4 dalbert

dalbert

    Website Owner

  • Admin
  • 4347 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 02 April 2005 - 10:24 PM

Your gun was apparently manufactured the first year (1975) that Numrich started making the 1927-A1. If you get a chance, please post some pictures.

I have been meaning to post an article I found from a January 1975 "American Firearms Industry" magazine that talks about the debut of the 1927-A1. Here it is:

Magazine cover featuring 1927-A1:

user posted image

Article on the debut of the 1927-A1:

user posted image

Here's an ad for the 1927-A1 that appeared in the magazine:

user posted image

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com
  • 0

#5 deerslayer

deerslayer

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 1701 posts
  • Location:North Iowa

Posted 02 April 2005 - 11:09 PM

I see a full auto M1a1 type lower. Be interesting to see the left side of those guns pictured.
  • 0

#6 TheTodd

TheTodd

    New Member

  • Regular Group
  • 13 posts

Posted 03 April 2005 - 12:42 AM

I have a WH 1927A1 with the serial #range of 311XX and the Serial # page doesn't go but to 28XXX. I don't know how accurate that page is. Mine is a deep blue and a beautiful weapon and shoots great. I've only shot it 25 times.
  • 0

#7 dalbert

dalbert

    Website Owner

  • Admin
  • 4347 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 03 April 2005 - 12:03 PM

TheTodd,

The serial number list in the link does not include the last few years of production. Your gun was probably made around 1999.

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com
  • 0

#8 Arthur Fliegenheimer

Arthur Fliegenheimer

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3456 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 April 2005 - 01:27 PM

Of course that American Firearms promo ad posing as an article is riddled with inaccuracies and deceptions. Numrich was never sold the rights to the name "Thompson" or "Auto-Ordnance." The West Hurley 1927 A1 was not fitted with a real Lyman site or real Cutts compensator. Exactly which "original" Auto-Ord roll stampings did Numrich utilize? The ones that read "West Hurley, New York" or "Model Of 1927 A1?" The only major change was the 16 inch barrel? Ha! If only that were true.

Lets see?
M1/M1a1 type stock and frame on a 1928 type model.
Closed bolt with out-sized bizarre cocking knob and impossible spring tension.
Indifferent lining up of serial number stampings.
Poor replica of Cutts and Lyman.
But other than that, and of course the ridiculous 18 1/2" barrel, and the overall poor quality finish, it still has more in common with the Underwood typewriter than the famed gangster Chicago typewriter.

  • 0

#9 Norm

Norm

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2514 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Memphis, TN
  • Interests:Thompsons (of course), Electronics, Physics, History, Mechanics, Collecting License Plates.

Posted 03 April 2005 - 02:27 PM

I am wondering why all of the photos show a "full-auto" type pivot plate. dry.gif
  • 0

#10 dalbert

dalbert

    Website Owner

  • Admin
  • 4347 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 03 April 2005 - 05:16 PM

I'm kind of glad they didn't go with the 16' barrel mentioned in the article. 16" is much easier to wield. Yes, there were several inaccuracies in that article, but interesting nonetheless...

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com
  • 0

#11 TD.

TD.

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2911 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 April 2005 - 10:10 PM

Inaccuracies – yes. Deceptions – no, not at the listed price. George Numrich and his rights to all the assets of the Auto-Ordnance Division - “Numrich states that, since his company holds the patents, trademarks, etc. on the Thompson SMG, it is doubtful if any other company could produce a Thompson of any kind.” A published George Numrich quote in 1967. Only the Colt purists howl when George’s name comes up. Unfortunately for the purist, George and Company bought it all when no one else wanted anything to do with the Thompson. Arthur, as we have discussed before, follow the trail of the Blish pistol – it goes directly to George Numrich and Numrich Arms Corporation (NAC).

Of course, we could spend a few pages rehashing this topic again… biggrin.gif

  • 0

#12 LIONHART

LIONHART

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 2785 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Thompsons of course. All Manufactures and Models.

Posted 03 April 2005 - 10:45 PM

All the early produced '27 Guns featured modified M1 TSMG Trigger Housings.. Sort of Old News though...
  • 0

#13 Tman

Tman

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 493 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Houston, TX
  • Interests:Firearms, in general

Posted 04 April 2005 - 09:19 AM

AF,
We had a 27A1 in the vault a couple of years ago and it had an original Lyman on it. The guy said that he bought it brand new. This was before he became a felon and was converting AK's.
  • 0

#14 Norm

Norm

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2514 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Memphis, TN
  • Interests:Thompsons (of course), Electronics, Physics, History, Mechanics, Collecting License Plates.

Posted 04 April 2005 - 09:44 AM

Tman,

I think that AO of WH did use real Lyman sights until they ran out of them.

I have also seen very early 27A1s for sale that had real Lyman sights on them.

Norm

  • 0

#15 LIONHART

LIONHART

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 2785 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Thompsons of course. All Manufactures and Models.

Posted 04 April 2005 - 10:37 AM

Yes, all the early ones featured Original Lyman Rear Sights, before WH ran out of Stock prior to producing their own version...
  • 0

#16 Arthur Fliegenheimer

Arthur Fliegenheimer

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3456 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 04 April 2005 - 05:23 PM


Norm, T-Man, Devlin,
The early ones? If that means that some, or all, of the 932 units from the first production year of 1975 had real Lyman's, then by 1976, they all had Numrich "specials" for rear sights. Why attempt to use any WWII parts in the first place if you knew they would never last through the entire production? Was it cheaper to use surplus parts? Of course, but it sure seemed that Numrich didn't invest the money he saved from using WWII parts during the first year when he manufactured his poor substitute ones for the subsequent twenty one years Trast made these pieces.


TD,
Not to rekindle the fires of controversy again, but oh Hell, why not. Why did Ole George wait until 1975, after buying the crates from Willis in 1951, to even manufacture his own full auto 1928 TSMG if production on the semi-auto 1927 A1 model was held up from 1967 because of ATF issues? Could it be that George had to wait out the patents on the Thompson name and the Auto-Ord name that ceased to exist in 1944? Thirty years seems about right.

  • 0

#17 colt21a

colt21a

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3480 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:arizona desert.
  • Interests:Whatever we can do in Life

Posted 04 April 2005 - 06:10 PM

i had ordered in the first month of producton a semi 27 from them,serial number was #206,came with manual and 30 rd.stick plain cardboard box,the only new in box thompson i have ever seen,wink!!

and it came with the lyman.and wood and finish was better then past one's i have seen and handled. i never fired it, and sold it that same year. the guy that bought it still has it. however he hung it over his fireplace for year's,it got sooty,and he never oiled it down, and over the year's it got patina,and cruddy looking,and i think after he fired it a few time's he never really cleaned it.

so today 30 year's later i am sure it's a basket case. but what the heck i think he paid $500.00 for it. T.G. in it's finest form.with the drum 50 rd.

good time's fond memorie's....
take care,ron
  • 0

#18 dalbert

dalbert

    Website Owner

  • Admin
  • 4347 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 04 April 2005 - 06:39 PM

Arthur,

My understanding is that normal U.S. patents prior to 1995 expired 17 years from the patent grant date, so most of the Model of 1921 related patents would have expired around 1939 or so. My understanding of trademarks of the time was that they were originally issued for a term of 20 years. In your post, you referenced some expirations in 1944. I'm curious where the 1944 date came from.

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com
  • 0

#19 Merry Ploughboy

Merry Ploughboy

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 893 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 04 April 2005 - 07:03 PM

Patents of the Thompson vintage were of 14 year duration.
  • 0

#20 dalbert

dalbert

    Website Owner

  • Admin
  • 4347 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 04 April 2005 - 07:17 PM

MP,

Where did you find reference to a 14-year patent?

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com
  • 0