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Ciener .22 Conversions...


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#1 amafrank

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 12:40 PM

I shot one of Jonathan Cieners conversions at the Knob Creek shoot last week and it was really neat. I ended up buying one of his kits for my toys and the unit runs like a champ in my M1. I didn't make the extractor cut wide enough in my post sample 1928 so the barrel won't fit yet but it will be fixed. I know lots of guys have no interest in the .22 conversions but I love them. I have many original military conversions and training rifles so this is another one to play with though its not a military unit. Accuracy is unbelieveable for the type of sights the gun has. We were plinking at golf balls and tennis balls at 50-100yds and actually hitting them. In full auto you can put a whole mag in a very small area. They are a good and inexpensive way to teach trigger control and sight use.....
Now I just need to build a drum for the 28A1 that will actually work.

Frank

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#2 Nav4

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 01:16 PM

Thanks for the sitrep on your 22 conversion.
I've got one in my Uzi from Vector and like it too but my Uzi reciever is registered for 22/45/9mm .
So I'm wondering since my form 4 says that my '28 is only 45 cal and not any other caliber,
is this a gray area or what's the legality of a conversion of a FA weapon registered in only one caliber ?
I'm thinking because it's an insert it's not an issue is that the case ?
Anyone know ?

Oh and is Cieners std conversion kit the thing to buy or should I spring for his delux version ?

Bill
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#3 TSMGguy

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 06:12 PM

I also love the .22 conversion to the Vector Uzi. I've never converted it back to 9mm. Vector's 20 and 32 round steel mags work great . It's the gun I take out when I'm introducing someone to class 3 and I don't want to be shot into poverty!

No problem in converting your TSMG to .22 using the Ceiner conversion, as it is not considered to be a permanant modification. Enjoy!

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#4 junglewalk

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 06:47 PM

Mr.Ceiner on saturday, told me there could be a problem with his 28a1 unit in a w/HURLEY........Has anyone managed to unite the two and make it work ?.........jw
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#5 Bill in VA

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 07:54 PM

I'd still like to hear about potential troubles with using his 22 kit on a WH TSMG, since everything I've heard so far has been pretty vague. I'm going to guess his conversion kit coupled with a semi-auto is pretty much a no-go, but what about with a full-auto WH? Specifically, I have a WH M1 (s/n M187A) and about the only part on it that's still WH is the receiver. The bbl, bolt, complete lower, etc... is all Savage. Is there some real reason why the Ciener 22 conversion kit wouldn't run in my gun?

Edited by Bill in VA, 11 April 2005 - 07:55 PM.

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#6 full auto 45

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 08:42 PM

Frank, if you want to try the kit in a 1928 WH, let me know and we can use mine.
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#7 amafrank

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 11:05 PM

Mike I'd be happy to try it in the WH. It will give us an excuse to go shoot if nothing else....
Nav4 there is no problem with the conversions as far as the forms go. There are no permanent mods and all the .22 parts are removable.
Phil, we fired 2 bricks through the thing plus a couple hundred rounders. It ran as well at the end as it did at the start. I'll post a report when I get to the 5000rd mark too. As to the inexpensive comment, that was intended to relate to the cost of operating. The kit still costs more than we want to pay. I got the deluxe kit with 2 mags and the cocking handles and barrel nuts for both the 28 and M1 with or without the cutts. I do a little familiarization stuff and letting someone get to know the trigger and the open bolt setup without cutting down the treetops is more than handy. The cost of ammo is low hence the inexpensive comment. I'm not associated with the Ciener bunch and I've had my share of trouble trying to deal with them on the phone. Jonathan needs some lessons in customer service and phone etiquette but in person he is a lot friendlier. I've been chatting with him at the creek for a few years now and only last spring found out it was Ciener. Not what I expected from the phone dealings.

.22 conversions are frequently troublesome. Some guys think they should run all .22 ammo and don't know how to "fiddle" with mechanical things. Like any .22 semi or full they can take time to figure out which ammo works and whether the things need to be oiled, dry or in between etc.... Many of my .22's both machineguns and semi's won't run in the winter due to the wax on the bullets and the already low power of the round itself. I've run Cieners conversions in my AK (semi only) and in my buddies Mini 14 and another friends M16 semi and full. My biggest complaint is that the mags are a pain to load. At least the Tommie conversion doesn't use the mag lip as an ejector. It looks a lot better too since it doesn't have the silly tiny curved mag sticking out.


Hope that answers some questions.

Mike we are on the road again this week but should be back monday night. Maybe the following weekend would be a good time to try the WH setup.

Later
Frank

Edited by amafrank, 12 April 2005 - 09:14 PM.

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#8 DC Chris

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 11:11 PM

Mike-

I know you have a WH 1928... so the natural question is did you ever try it?

I too was always curious why he said WH's were no suggested for the .22 conversion or you may have problems. Like Bill said - most people with WH 1928's have redone pretty much everything anyway.

Chris.
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#9 full auto 45

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 08:12 AM

When Frank gets back, we'll try it in my WH. We'll shoot some video and let you know how it does. Now to plan that big shoot in Greenfield................... cool.gif
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#10 PK.

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 08:43 AM

The difficulty with the WH is that it is not consistent in it’s manufacture. How do you make a conversion to fit a gun if the tolerances are all over the place? The Colt and GI guns were pretty much made to print and retrofitting a kit is possible. If you have a Westie that is close it will work fine with a Ciner kit, but he is wise to say that this is an improbability at best.

That said, the WH can be brought up to snuff and be as good a shooter as any, with or without a 22 kit.

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#11 TSMGguy

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 09:03 AM

I notice that Ceiner's ads do state that his kits are for "original" TSMGs, not WHs. For that reason, I haven't purchased one for the WH M1. That, and the fact that PK noticed when he rebuilt it that the bolt pocket on the gun is slightly oversized in most dimensions from GI. It's nothing that I can notice, but I wonder how the Ceiner kit would work in this situation?

Does anyone know if Ceiner has started to furnish magazines of greater than 10 round capacity? I always thought that 10 rounds was just too little full-auto fire to bother with!

The Vector .22 Uzi conversion is very easy to live with. Mag loading is easy but takes awhile with the 32 round magazines. The rate of fire is VERY fast. There is no recoil or barrel rise. Entire mag dumps go right to the point of aim. Some slight trimming of the ejector was required (instructions furnished by Vector) which doesn't effect 9mm function at all. The bolt is mostly made of aluminum but the surfaces that are likely to wear are of steel. The combo likes Winchester ammunition best and is very light and handy.

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#12 amafrank

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 10:26 AM

My guess on the WH problem is the ejector slot in the reciever. In my post sample I didn't make the slot wide enough for the key on the insert barrel. Maybe the WH's have the slot slightly off or incorrect width or??? The insert barrel indexes off the ejector slot and if it is off it could cause some trouble. The insert has a little feedramp that lines up with the mags quite nicely in my M1 and the ejector is part of the insert too. PK noted that the tolerences are off in the WH guns and if these parts don't line up right that could easily be it....we'll post some info when I can get together with Mike.
The magazines I got are 30rdrs. He has them for sale but they are pricey. I noticed in the manual that it lists 30rd (10rd) and 20rd (10rd) mags so it must be leftover from the ban printing...He did tell me that extra 30rd mags were $90. He had a pile of new 30rd mags for the M16 and Mini 14 on the table for $40 ea too. The tommie mags are built inside a standard 30rd mag. One of mine is a seymour and the other I can't remember. Not quite as easy to make as the AR types so I can see a higher price. Still seems a bit high though......

Frank


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#13 PK.

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 10:55 AM

Howard, the Uzi mags are easy to load with a modified Cambi loader; slicker than you know what.
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#14 TSMGguy

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 02:16 PM

er, what's a Cambi loader?
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#15 Ron A

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 02:58 PM

My only experience with Ciener was at the Shot Show last year. After that experience I wouldn’t purchase anything from him. He was rude and ran crap over Thompson’s. It appears he has a high rate of dissatisfied customers, and takes it out on everyone, even a possible customer. Maybe if he would improve his products his attitude would change. I question if either will happen.
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#16 PK.

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 03:31 PM

Cambi loader = brand name of magazine loader that levers the cartridges into the magazine- saves your fingers and is faster. Not made for Thompson. Is made for Uzi & others. The Uzi 9mm model can be modified to work with the Uzi 22 mags. If you want some details Howard, email me and I’ll set you up.
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#17 Poprivit

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 04:14 PM

One thing about Ciener you guys probably don't know. He's had to have made a great deal of money from these kits because he owns a couple of Ferrari Formula One cars, replete with full time Italian mechanics to keep the cars happy. These are VERY expensive play toys and he runs them in vintage races which probably takes $20k+ per event if nothing breaks. Tire warmers are $1,000 per set of four, 117 octane fuel is $8.00/gal. and those little V-12 engines drink a lot. The Motronic on-board electronics are in excess of $15k. Two-way radio is $5k.

And you thought Tommy is expensive! Ha!
(I own a1999 minivan and a Ruger AC-556, and my wife breaks out the carving knife if I so much as read Small Arms review.) blink.gif
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#18 john

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 06:51 PM

I tried to ask JAC a question last year at KCR. He was looking at a magazine and I was very polite and patient. After standing there a few minutes I asked him about how long it would take to install the '28 kit in my Bridgeport.....
After what seemed like a full minute he looked up and said "I don't have time to answer questions now - I'm too busy" (nobody else was anywhere close). "You want a kit, buy one and read the instructions".

No thanks folks. I WILL NOT patronize an asshole! dry.gif

500 bucks buys a lot of .45 ammo!! wink.gif

john
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#19 wildwilly2002

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 08:20 PM

Thanks for the info phil!
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#20 amafrank

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 09:49 PM

Phil that was an outstanding post. I thought you just had a bad time with Ciener (which pretty much happens to anyone that deals with him at one point) and wanted to vent. I see now that you have not only experience with the kit but solutions as well. I appreciate the details too.
I'd have to agree with pretty much all the points you made but as a tinkerer and machinest I don't really notice some of the defects because I'm always fiddling anyway. The ejector is indeed staked in place and after reading your post I'll solder mine. I'm not worried too much about the chamber size as all 3 of my tommies are military. I might have to fix it if it won't fit Mikes WH though. That was a problem I hadn't considered since I haven't had many dealings with the WH's. I didn't see that the bolt was primarily aluminum until I took it apart to clean it today. I had thought it was Delrin or some other plastic. Not sure which would be better really. The plastics might wear better especially on the sear surface. I might just have to make an insert sear surface from steel or something....
The barrel nuts on mine seem to be pretty well made and the knurling is actually nice. Maybe I got lucky or maybe he fixed the machine that makes them. I was thinking that I need to make another one with 1/2-28 threads for a suppressor though.
I had considered the PPS50 drums from Gunparts but they have been out for sometime as far as I know. I have a full auto PPS50 too so I'm not going to destroy any of the ones I have. It might be worth trying to make a few though. I was pretty happy with the rate of fire as it is less the the PPS by a long shot though more than my AK trainer. After a mag or two I was able to fire singles and doubles without jerking the thing around. I'm still amazed at the accuracy of the thing and the little hammer setup is very cute.

I know that lathes, mills and welders are not as common in the average home garage as refrigerators and TV's. Some of us that are lucky enough to have and use these machines sometimes forget that not everyone is so inclined. I think I also take for granted that every gun I get will need some tweaking at the minimum and maybe a complete rebuild as I mostly deal with ancient machineguns and cannons. I agree with you that this shouldn't be so with new ones and Ciener should take care of his customers if he expects them to continue supporting him. Some of the points you made could easily be taken care of with a line of code in the CNC machinery and wouldn't cost any more to produce. I don't know how to get him to do it though....

Frank


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