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Colt Tsmg Listed At Hallowell


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#1 bigu2fan

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 07:48 PM

Here's a Colt for sale:

http://www.hallowell...bmachinegun.htm

Lots of pictures and the description is waaaay at the bottom.

What do you guys think?

--bigu2fan

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#2 Roland, Headless Thompson Gunner

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 08:20 PM

Pictures show the detail. At that price it wont last long.
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#3 John Jr

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 09:04 PM

If I wanted a colt, which I don't, I would offer him full price tonight.

Thats more along the lines of what one is really worth.


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#4 gijive

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 09:06 PM

That picture has been on that website for at least a year and a half. It was discussed on this Board some time ago. The barrel is not original to the gun, the fins don't extend the proper distance past the vertical grip.

It may have sold, but it has never been taken down off the site. It's been there for quite awhile.
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#5 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 09:50 PM

Wow! As G.I Jive points out, this particular TSMG has been on replay like payola on that site and this board for the last year and a half.

JJ,
The fact you believe that this Colt, in this condition, with pitting, some odd ball barrel with a beat up Cutts that is not even threaded all the way on the barrel and with a parkerized drum is worth $27,500 then you sure have bumped up your estimation of what even a mediocre Colt TSMG is worth. So how do you balk at another $5K for better condition and another $2K for the proper barrel and non dented 2nd pattern Colt Cutts?

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#6 John Jr

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 10:19 PM

That’s precisely the difference in my opinion of colt and yours.

Some oddball barrel? Colt didn't make ANY barrel, you know who did. Who cares what barrel is in the gun, colt didn't make barrels. Colt Cutts? You of all people should know there is no such thing. First through fourth, colt didn't make any.

The barrel is probably a WW2 model. We all know (or should know) that removal of the Cutts and subsequent replacement is VERY difficult to accomplish without "screwing" it up. Some amateur did that.

The drum just looks rusty, but to my eyes not parked. It doesn't really matter anyway, the gun and the drum would make great shooters.

You see, when you buy a colt TSMG, you get the receiver, the lower, and all internals that were made by colt themselves. They outsourced all the rest of the gun. When you buy a colt what do you get? You basically get a colt upper and lower with all internal parts.

This gun for $27500 is in line with the market. You get an all colt gun, granted it’s not in the exact condition it was when it left the factory in 1922, but everything colt manufactured is still intact. When you consider that Savage 1928's are selling for $22,000 to $25,000 this gun is in line if you want a gangster era weapon.

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#7 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 11:06 PM

Name a product that is compiled of different parts made out of different substances that doesn't out source some aspect or component? My addition of the Colt moniker to the 2nd pattern Cutts (whether made by Lyman) and the barrel (whether made by Remington) is because that is what the blueprints for this weapon as built by Colt were ordered to follow as commissioned by Auto-Ordnance. You seem to be hung up on this widely accepted practice in production only when it concerns Colt. At any rate, Colt still did the bluing of the barrel, Cutts and Lyman base and then proceeded to assemble these components in a manner not appreciated or duplicated by future generations.

Even the seller acknowledges the L drum as being parked. Who knows if everything inside is Colt either, since the seller states the barrel is "original" when it isn't even a WWII type. Surely this board is in itself a tribute to the fact the the Colt TSMG is much more than the sum of its original parts. There is a mystique that is is inherent in the union between Colt and Auto-Ordnance. Colt already had the history and the artisans and Auto-Ord had the spirit of John T. and the design, engineering, and investment magic of Eickhoff, Blish, Goll and Ryan. The point is that Colt approved the order for the Auto-Ord TSMG with the provisions that such and such make the ancillary items. That is totally different from some amateur gunsmith making their own modifications to, or the replacement of, what was stipulated to be of original type equipment and design for the weapon.



The WWII TSMG was subjected to further design by committee with alterations based on costs, not performance. Iannamico's book is a testament to how out sourcing on an unprecedented scale contributed to the final production of a WWII TSMG.

Just by the nature of what the market considers more valuable in the hierarchy of TSMG's, if you want your 1928 Savage to command $25K, then a Colt TSMG is going to fetch $35K+.

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#8 John Jr

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 11:32 PM

QUOTE
You seem to be hung up on this widely accepted practice in production only when it concerns Colt. At any rate, Colt still did the bluing of the barrel, Cutts and Lyman base and then proceeded to assemble these components in a manner not appreciated or duplicated by future generations.


This practice, while widely accepted, needs to be noted especially in the case of early TSMGs. There are a few people like yourself that appreciate the fact that colt assembled these guns and are willing to pay a huge premium for it. But I realize and often publicize the fact that these "artisans" were nothing more than factory workers that put together the sum of these outsourced parts and "factory" parts. Colt didn't design the Thompson. Colt didn't pay for the equipment that produced the Thompson. They fabricated the registered part, the lower and the internals and somebody else in another factory did the rest. So what if Colt blued the outsourced parts. Bluing leaves a rust prone finish that the TSMG didn't need. That is why the military redid all the TSMGs they got.


QUOTE
There is a mystique that is inherent in the union between Colt and Auto-Ordnance.


Only in your mind. Savage was offered the contract that colt took to build the first 15,000 examples. Savage turned it down. That turned out to be a very wise decision. When WW2 broke out, colt refused the open ended contract to build as many as possible and Savage stepped up to meet the challenge. As bad as you hate R. McGuire he pulled over 100 million dollars in making the TSMG. Colt lost a fortune by not accepting the WW2 contracts and they were offered them first.

Colt made a stupid decision in WW2 and they continue to do so to this day. Colt hates the fact that civilians own or can own the full automatic firearms that they build. Call and ask them to fix something and see what they say.
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#9 Sig

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 04:05 AM

Original asking price was $32,500. I noted it had an asking price of $29,500 last June.
Seems like this guy is getting his price in line with the condition it is in.
michael
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