52 replies to this topic

[21 smoker]

I don`t seem to find some info I need...received my rewatted 28 Savage back from PK (Beautiful job btw!!) and finally got to closely examine my prize(bond with it)...when did the `patent dates` on the receiver get changed to `patent numbers`?...any info would be appreciated...

[Motorcar]

PHOTOS!... WE MUST HAVE PHOTOS MY GOOD MAN!

[adlake]

Yes, Lets share in the feast . Photos!!!-Adlake

[Merry Ploughboy]

Under the "any info" category, the practice of indicating the patented status of goods (which is referred to as "marking") using the U.S. patent number was initiated after the Patent Act of 1925.

[21 smoker]

To further clarify my request,this Savage 28 has the `patent dates` stamped on the right side of the receiver like the Colt Thompsons and all the pics I have found in `American Thunder II` show the 28s with `patent numbers`....and as soon as I can post some quality pictures that do justice to Paul Krogh`s work,I will...thanks again for any help...

[gijive]

Your 1928 Model obviously has the New York, N.Y. address at the rear right side of the receiver like the Colt era Thompsons. The patent numbers and Bridgeport, CT address were seen on the receivers (in reverse position) about the time that Auto-Ordnance opened their own plant at the Bridgeport address. I believe Frank's book mentions production started at that facility in 1941.

[TD.]

gijive,
When I first read this post I too thought that 21 smoker's TSMG was probably an early Savage with the New York address - but I was busy at the time and decided to check Frank's book at a later time. As I review Frank's book, it appears (to me) that early Savage and late Savage production Thompsons have patent numbers, not patent dates, on the right side of the receiver. See pages 123, 133, 175 & 202. I also believe the Auto-Ordnance Thompsons also have patent numbers, not patent dates. This leads me to a couple of questions:

1. Do all WWII Savage and Auto-Ordnance produced Thompsons have patent numbers on the right side of the receiver? (this is what I have always thought, but I have never been enough of a student on WWII Tommyguns to say this with any authority without first checking the reference material)

2. Can you tell if the maker of a Thompson is Savage (with Bridgeport address) or Auto-Ordnance by just looking at the right side of the receiver?

3. What Thompsons have patent dates on the receiver? Obviously, Colt Thompsons do, but are there any others?

We need pictures but in the interim, 21 smoker, is this what you see on the right side of your receiver?




Or this…

[gijive]

TD,

You are correct, my error. The early Savage guns do have patent numbers even with the New York address on the receiver. I was going from memory and it obviously failed me. Obviously, the Colt era guns are the only ones with patent dates. I was thinking of the positioning of the address and numbers on the early Savage guns and assumed the position of the patent numbers were dates, similar to the Colt guns.

[21 smoker]

TD,

The second photo matches what is stamped on the right side,forward on this receiver...and you are correct,this is an early Savage 28 #24169,New York address...sorry it took so long to reply...work got in the way...

[TD.]

21 smoker,
The second photo contains the 1922 Thompson Patent Dates. These are normally found on Colt Thompsons with Serial Numbers between 14500 and 15040.
Quick Question:

Is the New York address like this:

AUTO-ORDNANCE CORPORATION,
New York, N.Y. U.S.A.

or like this:


I think I know the answer to this puzzle...

[21 smoker]

TD,


The address is the first one you wrote in blue and those are the correct patent dates that are on this receiver...and the answer is.....

[TD.]

21 smoker,
I thought you would have picked the New York markings as shown in the attached photograph of my last post. I am very surprised and cannot wait to see pictures of this Thompson. My initial opinion has changed somewhat based on the address markings, but this is what I think you have based on the posts thus far concerning the right side of the receiver. You obviously have a receiver with late Colt patent date markings and early Savage maker and city markings. I believe it is very possible you have a Colt receiver left over at the end of the 1922 production run that was later used by Savage during their WWII production run. My guess is the receiver was only marked by Colt on the right side with the patent dates before it was either rejected for some now unknown reason or just no longer needed to complete the Auto-Ordnance production contract. If this is the case, it is very likely Savage just entered the receiver into the assembly line at some point during their WWII production of Thompsons. For a related Thompson, see Thompson Collectors Association Newsletter, Vol. 145-3, about a Thompson in Denmark that has a Colt receiver but is not a Colt Production Thompson. This article is by Gordon Herigstad, who also references in his book another Thompson in Sweden with a Colt receiver that was probably assembled by Savage during WWII (NO 14586). Obviously, the markings on the left side of the receiver may shed some light on this theory of mine.

It is also possible your Thompson is made up of two receiver half’s welded together. However, I would think that possibility would be very obvious unless someone was one hell of a welder and metal refinisher. Whatever you have, I believe the many experts on this board, like gijive, above, who knows much more about Thompsons than I do, will have some great opinions on your Thompson when pictures are posted. It appears you have a one of a kind Tommy Gun. Thank-you for sharing.

[21 smoker]

TD,

Thank you for effort, I`m surprized with this info and I am trying to post with a digital camera..right now the camera is acting up.Today is range test day for this Savage...PK just completed rewatting and thoroughly examined and reconditioned this gun...he gave no indication that the receiver was a reweld. Other than near the barrel up front which he restored,there is no weld indications anywhere.This gun was dewatted during the 68 amnesty according to the paperwork from the seller...I will post pictures before the sun sets today...thank gijive for you input...thank you TD....

[gijive]

TD and 21 Smoker,

I think TD's first theory is correct. It is more than likely a leftover Colt receiver that wasn't fully marked on the left side and used in early Savage production. Smoker, is there any evidence that the Colt Patent Firearms data on the left rear of the receiver had been altered and restamped with the standard WWII era information? It sounds like one of the guns TD referred to that appeared in the Thompson Newsletter.

Very interesting gun, would love to see pictures when you can post them. You may want to look for certain Inspector's codes inside the receiver and under the rear grip. Colt guns usually have a letter code stamped in side the receiver near the pilot hole, i.e. D,E,G, etc. and a smaller letter code in the area under the rear grip near the grip screw hole. If it has these marks I believe it would indicate a leftover Colt receiver that was inspected.

Something new everyday, huh?

[21 smoker]

OK,..hope this works...





http:
//img.photobucket.com/albums/v693/21SMOKER/th_Picture003.jpg

I checked the inside of the receiver and found no letters marked near the pilot hole,nor any signs of a weld repair...range report is 100% function,no hicups...another testimonial for Paul Krogh!!!...single shot accuracy is very good,consistantly knocking down steel turkeys at 150 meters...not bad for reloads...anyway I hope these pictures help..got go clean it now..thanks again for all your input...

[TD.]

21 smoker - glad to hear it was a fun day at the range. Unfortunately, the picture we have all been waiting for, the right side of the receiver, did not post.

[full auto 45]

See if this works....

[21 smoker]

Go figure!...Thanks Mike for helping out...I struggled all weekend to post the last pic and you see what happened...I should have taken the PC and camera to the range....for targets!....it is a great feeling to have the support of all the members on this forum...now let the debates continue...

[TD.]

21 smoker,
This looks like one nice Thompson. Glad to hear the range results were as expected. Of course, that has become the norm after PK. does his magic. I am not surprised by the lack of evidence pointing to a welded receiver. I only mentioned it because your Thompson was a dewat at one time so this (remote) possibility had to be covered. However, I was sure PK. would have noticed any work like this no matter how well it may have been done.

I believe you have late Colt receiver on this early Savage produced Thompson. I cannot imagine anyone in 1968 or before marking Thompson receivers with the 1922 patent dates. At that time, this slight marking variation on Colt Thompsons may have only been know by the advanced enthusiast or expert collector. It was be interesting to know the individual steps taken by Colt when producing a receiver. I would think the markings would be one of the last steps but this is just a guess on my part. Perhaps, the patent dates were the first markings applied and this receiver was rejected for cosmetic reasons after the markings were applied. Or maybe the production line stopped after it was marked and this receiver was placed in storage along with all the other finished and unfinished parts to resurface again years later at the Savage plant. Based on the markings on both the right and left side of the receiver, there is little doubt this is an early Savage production Thompson that was inspected by George E. Goll.

The history of this Thompson becomes very interesting when you include the dewatting, amnesty registration and “NAC” suffix serial number markings. I could speculate for hours on how all these things could interact but at the end of the day, I believe it is still a late Colt production receiver on an early Savage produced Thompson. The search for Colt inspector markings referred to by gijive was an excellent idea, but the absence of these markings does not mean it is not a Colt produced receiver. It is quite possible a Thompson expert that has owned and/or examined many Colt and Savage Thompsons could examine the receiver of your Thompson and give an opinion as to the marker, regardless of the receiver markings. And they could examine the patent date markings in person and perhaps be able to find something noteworthy (cosmetic rejection). I am interested in what the other board members think. Please let us know your thoughts!

You have a great one of a kind Thompson. If it were mine, I would want to trace back the history as much as possible. A few interviews could answer a lot of questions on the dewatting, amnesty registration and NAC markings. A Freedom of Information Request would be a good starting point to uncover any unknown transfers in this quest I hope you pursue. Send me an e-mail if you would like to discuss further on the telephone. I will be glad to help you in any way I can. Thanks for sharing.

[bug]

I too have an early Savage (16,xxx) and with the exception of the NAC suffixed SN, the receiver markings are exactly the same as the gun of interest. Does this gun have the black oxide finish? Is the GEG proof present?

Bob D