28 Savage Info
Posted 16 May 2005 - 12:01 PM
15041-26000 approx: NY address, 12 patent dates; address to the rear and dates to the front of receiver
26000-80000 approx: NY address, 13 patent numbers
80000-100000 approx: Bridgeport address, 13 patent numbers
100000-140000 approx: Same as above, but numbers are now found towards the rear of the receiver
All of the above markings are to be found on the right side of the receiver.
Posted 16 May 2005 - 12:04 PM
Posted 16 May 2005 - 12:10 PM
Posted 16 May 2005 - 12:22 PM
Your memory is correct, I own S-245XX which is marked according to my most recent post. Mine says "New York, N.Y. U.S.A." I do notice the NY address difference, I'll check and see if I can find some explanation in my sources.
Posted 16 May 2005 - 02:29 PM
|You have a great one of a kind Thompson. If it were mine, I would want to trace back the history as much as possible.|
Now that all your pics are in, it sure appears that what you have is an early "Commercial" Savage manufactured receiver with the "New York, N.Y." address and 12 patent dates. Even though the addition of the "NAC" suffix would signal some cause for suspicious re stamping, it seems that the "NAC" is the only thing added post WWII to the stock Savage receiver. I'm not sure what caused all the confusion and why some believed the receiver's origin to be Colt, but the "GEG" stamp and lack of internal Colt markings don't add to a "mystery" but actually de mystifies your example as one of almost 10,000 early WWII Savage produced TSMG's. The duplicate Colt receivers with 14586 and 7886 serial number in the Swedish museum had nothing to do with Savage since they were shipped by Maguire's Auto-Ord before Savage even went into production of their 1928 TSMG's. It would be helpful if GH had posted a photo of the "14586" and "7886" Swedish owned Colt TSMG's to look at how the Maguire stamping of these serial numbers compares to the Colt stampings of the same numbers.
But since there was such a demand for TSMG's by WWII, it is a head scratch why Maguire stopped his practice of stamping duplicate serial numbers on these previously "rejected" "overrun" or "unassembled" Colt receivers that he sold to a foreign buyer, but then left the other dozen or so "unassembled" "unfinished" "overrun" Colt Auto-Ord receivers in the crate as "discovered" by Numrich in the 1950's to become "NAC" prefix TSMG's.
Posted 16 May 2005 - 02:32 PM
Interesting information. I thought the early Savage guns may have had patent dates, but couldn't remember for sure. When the NAC reference was brought up I thought TD had the right answer, one of the leftover Colt receivers. I was certain about the New York address position, though. I can't remember reading about the serial number range breakdown. Thanks for posting it. What is the source for that information? Was that in Cox's book?
Posted 16 May 2005 - 02:44 PM
My best source for general history on military Thompsons are three articles written by Mr. Tom Ødemark here in Norway. In addition to his own research he has used Cox and Helmer as sources. I'll check to see if his articles have been translated into English.
Posted 16 May 2005 - 03:00 PM
Posted 16 May 2005 - 08:14 PM
Posted 17 May 2005 - 06:45 AM
I checked Frank’s and Tracie’s book again for a reference or picture of 1922 patent date markings on Savage produced Thompsons - nothing was mentioned. Tracie states on Page 179, “ For identification purposes, the Savage Commercial Thompsons have all internal nickel steel parts like the Colt guns, a flat-sided (machined) ejector, a New York address on the right side of the receiver, and a blued barrel without any British proof marks.” I also noted during the question and answer session at the 2003 TCA Show and Shoot, a question on Savage Commercials was asked and Tracie respond as above and added ‘no proof marks.’ Tracie also stated to the best of his recollection the highest serial number he had seen for a Savage Commercial Thompson was in the 19,000 serial number range. As we all know, Tracie’s main interest is with the Colt Thompsons. However, I do not think he would have omitted information (and a picture) about 1922 patent dates on the right side of early Savage receivers if he would have known about it.
Frank’s second book on Page 174 tells about how the “early Savage manufactured receivers had Auto-Ordnance’s original New York, NY address roll marked on the right side at the rear of the receiver, while the patent numbers were located at the center of the receiver’s right side. I find no reference in Frank’s books about 1922 patent dates on any type of Savage Thompson. Again, I do not think he would have omitted this information if he would have known about 1922 patent dates on early Savage receivers. Does anyone doubt Frank would have omitted a picture of this variation if it was found on approximately 10,000 early Savage receivers? Remember, this is his second book on military Thompsons. Perhaps, Frank will see this thread and respond. Frank was also at the 2003 TCA Show and Shoot, above.
I checked Cox’s book and again no reference or pictures of 1922 patent dates on early Savage Thompsons. Jim Bannan’s 2nd edition book with Tracie Hill - nothing. I cannot find a single reference in print to 1922 patent dates on Savage Thompsons by anyone. Doug Richardson never mentioned 1922 patent dates in his TCA article on Savage Thompsons (Vol. 19-3).
PhilOhio – I agree, the NAC markings bring up all kinds of possibilities.
Bug – Another early Savage Thompson with markings exactly like 21 smoker. Would you please post a picture of the right side receiver of your Thompson. We have gone from none to two in a very short period with no reference in several respected published works.
Balder – I noted you posted in a previous thread about patent dates, not numbers, on early Savage receivers. Does your early Savage Thompson have the same 1922 patent date markings as 21 Smoker? I have never heard of Mr. Tom Ødemark. Would it be possible to obtain a translated copy of his articles? I agree with Arthur that Cox and Helmer never referenced this 1922 patent date receiver. I can surmise (from published data) where Mr. Ødemark may have obtained the, “15041-26000 approx: NY address, 12 patent dates; address to the rear and dates to the front of receiver” information but it would only be a guess on my part. I would like to hear his source before I make any comments on this.
gijive – obviously, one of us is right If you recall seeing patent dates on early Savage Thompsons, then there must be more of this variation in existence. I am sure you have seen many more Savage Thompsons than me. Question: Do you believe all Savage receivers below Serial Number 26000 have 1922 patent dates?
Arthur – I believe the NAC markings on 21 smoker’s Thompson are a good indication this Thompson is not, nor never was, a Savage Commercial Thompson. I think PhilOhio’s statement that this Thompson is probably an import from England is more than likely true. As to NO 7886 and NO 14586, no one knows for sure how those two Thompsons came to be – only that they are not Colt production Thompsons. I do not believe any pictures have ever been published of the Swedish NO 14586. I agree that Frank’s two books on the WWII Thompsons are the best source of information for the war Thompsons. I think the 1922 patent dates is just too important of a detail to overlook; I do not believe that Frank (or Tracie) knew about the Savage patent date receivers. What is even more interesting is Frank had access to several large private collections of Thompsons during research for his books and this detail never surfaced. I will ask you the same question I asked gijive, above: Do you believe all Savage receivers below Serial Number 26000 have 1922 patent dates?
This is one interesting thread. Let’s keep it going. It would be great to see a few more pictures posted and possibly hear from Frank about this topic.
Question: Does anyone have an early Savage Thompson with a New York address and patent numbers?
Posted 17 May 2005 - 07:18 AM
Posted 17 May 2005 - 07:48 AM
|QUOTE (TD. @ May 17 2005, 06:45 AM)|
|gijive – obviously, one of us is right If you recall seeing patent dates on early Savage Thompsons, then there must be more of this variation in existence. I am sure you have seen many more Savage Thompsons than me. Question: Do you believe all Savage receivers below Serial Number 26000 have 1922 patent dates? |
I actually haven't seen that many Savage guns over the years, at least not as many as I would have liked
In the early 1980's, after I had purchased a Colt gun from Roger Cox, I had the opportunity to examine an early Model of 1928 with British proof marks that was owned by a neighboring police department. I was particularly interested in comparing the markings on the two guns after practically memorizing Cox's book. I remember the serial number being only a few thousand past the last Colt numbers and remember comparing the right side markings. I thought the gun had patent dates as opposed to numbers, but truthfully, I can't specifically remember all the details after twenty-plus years. I do remember reading in Cox's book about the 1922 patent dates appearing on late Colt guns and thought I saw that difference on the Savage gun, but that may just be faulty memory and/or wishful thinking.
As far as all guns below 26,000 having the patent dates, I couldn't say. Is it possible that the early British contracts guns purchased directly from Auto-Ordnance at the begining of Savage production may have all had the patent dates? Maybe by the time the U.S. Government got involved in handling the Lend-Lease shipments to foreign countries would be a good gauge of when the markings changed to patent numbers? Just a thought, I really don't know. Obviously, early Savage production guns were marked almost identically to the late production Colt guns. Maybe the roll-mark dies just wore out after production of a few thousand guns and that is when the change was made.
This is an interesting topic, however.
Posted 17 May 2005 - 10:28 AM
gijive – I too thought about the roll dies but that led me to wonder why Savage (apparently) changed the right side markings from New York, U.S.A. to New York, N.Y. U.S.A. I do not understand the significance of this change so I decided not to comment. One thing that surprises me is with all the hoop law over a Savage Commercial Thompson, no one has documented Colt type 1922 patent dates on the right side of the receiver. I always key in on the 1922 patent dates because I like the late Colt production Thompsons and the NAC (head scratch) prefix Thompsons. I wonder if early Savage Thompsons exist with variations of the patent dates and patent numbers and the two different New York address markings. Think of all the different marking possibilities. We may be just scratching the surface on this subject
Posted 17 May 2005 - 10:50 AM
Posted 17 May 2005 - 12:17 PM
Posted 17 May 2005 - 12:27 PM
|QUOTE (TD. @ May 17 2005, 06:45 AM)|
| Balder – I noted you posted in a previous thread about patent dates, not numbers, on early Savage receivers. Does your early Savage Thompson have the same 1922 patent date markings as 21 Smoker? I have never heard of Mr. Tom Ødemark. Would it be possible to obtain a translated copy of his articles? I agree with Arthur that Cox and Helmer never referenced this 1922 patent date receiver. I can surmise (from published data) where Mr. Ødemark may have obtained the, “15041-26000 approx: NY address, 12 patent dates; address to the rear and dates to the front of receiver” information but it would only be a guess on my part. I would like to hear his source before I make any comments on this. |
My M1928 Thompson has the exact same markings as the ones found on 21 smoker's. Mr. Ødemark has, as I stated in an earlier posting, based his articles on reference material and his own research. I happen to know that this research was quite extensive as the Norwegian armed forces received quite a number of Thompsons during and after the war. The markings on Savage serial numbers 15041-26000 (approx.) were identical as far as I know - some are today called "commercial" due to the fact that A-O sold these to customers in the US as well as to the British government. The Lend-Lease act was not passed until March 1941. I will talk to Mr. Ødemark soon, if his articles haven't been translated I'll offer to do it for him - if my English is up to it.
PS: I had actually resigned from this board due to the attitudes shown by some members, it's nice to observe that common decency has again found its way back to the Thompson forum. DS
Posted 17 May 2005 - 12:44 PM
|Arthur – I believe the NAC markings on 21 smoker’s Thompson are a good indication this Thompson is not, nor never was, a Savage Commercial Thompson. I think PhilOhio’s statement that this Thompson is probably an import from England is more than likely true.|
|For identification purposes, the Savage Commercial Thompson's have all internal nickel steel parts like the Colt guns, a flat-sided (machined) ejector, a New York address on the right side of the receiver, and a blued barrel without any British proof marks.” I also noted during the question and answer session at the 2003 TCA Show and Shoot, a question on Savage Commercials was asked and Tracie respond as above and added ‘no proof marks.’ Tracie also stated to the best of his recollection the highest serial number he had seen for a Savage Commercial Thompson was in the 19,000 serial number range.|
Notice when I mentioned the Commercial appellation I placed it inside quotes. It is the serial number parameter that denotes the initial Savage TSMG's that incorporated Colt parts and Colt type finishing. It is technically correct that a true Savage Commercial (in the strict sense of the word commercial, not for military sales) would lack foreign government proof marks, even though some examples were Brit proofed in the U.S., but never sent overseas. Of course the off kilter Numrich stamp coupled with the Brit Arrow, insure that this Savage left the shores of the U.S. and he was the importer.
But there are now three (3) board members who confirm that they have the same marked Savage. I guess your proclamation about Smoker's "one of a kind Savage" needs an asterisk. Just because previous authors screwed the pooch with omitting certain pics doesn't substantiate anything other than human nature. But don't feel bad since you are in good company. Doug Richardson believed the "climbing" dash on a patent date mag was also "one of a kind." That inspired Murry Willis to submit an article to TCN that he had the only second example in existence. And it snowballed from there.
But the reason why real deal Commercial Savage TSMG are so rare in the U.S. is because out of the 10,000 or so produced with Colt 2nd Model comps, Savage Barrels, checkered select levers, flat ejectors, etc, most were sent overseas prior to the 3/11/41 Lend Lease Act and not to American PD's. The only distinction that Cox and Hill make regarding a Savage TSMG with Colt parts and a Savage TSMG with Colt parts with the Commercial identity is that some of the former had the third or fourth pattern Cutts and the latter didn't have a passport. Since Smoker's Savage has been subjected to all kinds of rebuilds/dewats/rewats/ and now PK, who knows what Cutts it originally had on the barrel. So I wouldn't get hung up over that caveat when determining the origin of 21 Smoker's Savage TSMG.
Where did Hill get the 19,000 serial number cut off date from? Even the notorious J.C. Earl credited his S-71189 NAC marked TSMG as a COMMERCIAL. Yet that TSMG does not have Brit proofs, but has all the requisite "Commercial" parts including the second pattern Cutts, but with a pretty high serial number. Does a NAC marked Savage immediately disqualify it as a Savage Commercial in the strict sense? No doubt. Does a NAC marked Savage with patent dates and the New York,N.Y.U.S.A. address make it some sort of anomaly that couldn't be a "Commercial" equipped Savage (aside from crossing the pond) and, therefore, it must have started its life out as a Colt TSMG? There is no evidence currently to support this assumption.
When the PD's ordered Colt TSMG from Auto-Ord in 1940, Maguire, being the devious SOB that he was, delivered Savage TSMG 's with the left receiver discreet "S" Savage marking with serial number, the traditional Model of 1928 and Thompson Submachine Gun Calibre. 45 Automatic Cartridge, and on the right side was stamped the Auto-Ord Corp and cramped New York, N.Y.U.S.A., and to save money, the last used Colt patent dates markings.
Posted 17 May 2005 - 08:13 PM
Posted 17 May 2005 - 09:14 PM
Posted 17 May 2005 - 09:31 PM
21 smoker – thanks for the info on the lower. I was just curious. I bet it is a dream to shoot.
Balder – thank-you for coming back to the board. Yes, some members are at times hard to get along with. I too thought about quitting at one time. However, I decided I was not going to leave a place with many good members that provided the opportunity to learn. This thread is an excellent example of previously unpublished information (in the USA). I know everyone would be interested in learning from Mr. Ødemark’s research. It will be interesting to see what differences he noted on Thompsons acquired by Norway during and after WWII. Depending on the size of his sample, his research could be very predictive of what was happening at Savage and Auto-Ordnance during the war years. I will also post a picture of your early Savage Thompson if you so desire (just send me an e-mail through the board).
For what its worth: My definition of a Savage Commercial Thompson is an early Savage Thompson that has many features of the Colt Thompson discussed during this thread and was sold by Auto-Ordnance to a United States law enforcement or governmental agency during WWII. I am sure some will disagree or want to add more to my definition. I have no problem with that. I would have different names for identical early Savage Thompsons that were not sold commercially to a law enforcement or governmental agency during WWII in the USA. Examples include, British sale or export Thompsons, lend lease Thompson’s, etc. To me, it is the documented WWII civilian sale and police connotation that makes an early Savage Thompson a Savage Commercial Thompson – not solely the markings or parts.
Arthur - As to 21 smokers Savage Thompson not being a Savage Commercial Thompson – agree. (I did wonder about the quotation marks in your earlier post)
As to three board members who have a Savage Thompson with 1922 patent dates – this is a good thing. Only a very few on this board knew of this particular Savage variation before 21 smoker asked a simple question. I don’t think you are included in those few (you never answered my question ). As to the other respected authors, they not only omitted pictures of this variation, they never referenced this variation in print. That tells me this post is the first time this information has come out in a public forum (actually, I feel in pretty good company with the members on this board).
As to Tracie’s comment the 19,000 serial number range was the highest serial number range he had personally seen on a Savage Commercial Thompson - Tracie never stated this number was a cut off (and this observation was to the best of his recollection at the time).
As to whether or not these now three early Savage 1922 patent date Thompsons started life as a Colt receiver – the verdict is still out - but it now appears this new variation may well have been totally Savage produced. However, I am going to stick with my first opinion until more data is collected (remember, I am in good company).
As to McGuire being a devious SOB – agree. As to using the left over Colt 1922 Patent Date dies to save money – not enough information known at this time to make that determination. I do think if money were the sole object, McGuire would have also used the Colt New York, U.S.A. roll dies.
Any more early Savage Thompsons out there?