9 replies to this topic

[ZLP]

I have a question about legally owning a short barrelled shotgun that I thought some of you may be able to help me with. It may also be relevant to putting a 10.5" barrel on a 1927.
I have been thinking about applying to be able to legally shorten the barrels of my shotgun to less than 18", as well as put a short barrel on my Kahr. I was talking to a man who said he used to be a gun dealer, as well as own several full autos and one short shotgun. He said that the shotgun gave him so much trouble that he got rid of it. According to him, agents (I assume he meant ATF agents) would come to his door every so often to make sure he still had the shotgun, and verify that it was being stored in an acceptable manner. He said they would sometimes come at 2 or 3 in the morning, and he would have to get up and let them in right there and then, to let them inspect the gun and safe. If he was away, he would have to come back. He said they only did this w/ the shotgun and never once asked to see the full auto stuff.
Does anyone know if this really is common practice, or was this guy just full of %*&$? If that is what really happens when one has a short barreled shotgun I think I will just skip that hassle and be happy w/ a standard barrel.
Thanks in advance for any light you may be able to shed on this subject,
ZLP

[Ron A]

I think someone is full of BS - I have had SBR and shotguns, registered full auto guns for over 40 years and have never seen a ATF agent.

[philasteen]

I call BS on this story.

[Bill in VA]

Yup. I also call "Bull Puckey!" on this one. Owning any NFA device does not automatically negate one's Fourth Amendment rights. There is nothing in any federal law that permits such checks.

[Norm]

The ATF does have the right to ensure the weapon is at the location that is on form 4 (by knocking on the door and asking, not by force); but at 2:00 AM?!

Everyone I know that has an NFA weapon (including myself), has never gotten a visit from the ATF.

One of my NFA weapons is a short barrel shotgun.

It is an interesting fact that more states allow ownership of machineguns than ownership of short barrel shotguns.

NFA State List

Norm

[Z3BigDaddy]

"As to one who is neither a FFL nor SOT, but only owns weapons
regulated under the National Firearms Act, ATF may only compel you
to show an agent upon request the registration paperwork, that is
the Form 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or whatever else might have been used to
register the weapon. See 26 U.S.C. sec. 5841(e). They do not have
any right to compel you to produce the weapon. As always the
Fourth amendment applies, and ATF may not enter your home or other
place of storage of the NFA weapon, nor seize the weapon, without
a warrant, or without falling under an exception the Supreme Court
has created to the operation of the Fourth amendment, or without
your consent."*

* FAQ ON NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT WEAPONS

Copyright by James O. Bardwell, 1994 - 2001. Permission is given
to reproduce this document or portions thereof with attribution,
for non-commercial, or non-governmental use only. No claim to U.S.
statutes or regulations quoted herein.
This is accurate, to the best of my knowledge, as of 12/30/2001.
Nothing written here should be taken as legal advice. If you have
a specific legal problem, you should talk to a lawyer.

[Ron Mills]

I add my Bull Durham to the "center of the night" visits. Possession of too many leftover 8-track tapes, OK for them to search...wink! I guess that guy was trying to impress you, or something.

[Bill in VA]

QUOTE (Norm @ May 17 2005, 05:47 PM)

The ATF does have the right to ensure the weapon is at the location that is on form 4 (by knocking on the door and asking, not by force); but at 2:00 AM?!

No offense, but this information is patently false. The BATF does not have that right or power. The only thing the BATF can compel in regards to a privately possessed (i.e., non-FFL/non-FFL-SOT) NFA device is that the possessor show their relevant forms (Form 1/2/3/4/5/etc...) They cannot compel you to produce the NFA device. Moreover, there is no requirement per federal law that the NFA device in question be stored at the location listed on the Form 1/2/3/4/5/etc... The only time the BATF must be notified of a change in address is when the NFA device moves across state lines. If a private owner (non-FFL/non-FFL-SOT) moves within the same state there is no requirement to notify the BATF to update the NFRTR. FWIW, I've moved many times in-state and have never notified the BATF of my latest address. (Here in VA though, I do have to notify the state police of my change of address.)

[full auto 45]

I moved, in state, last year and sent the BATF a letter stating I moved and my new address and the numbers on my guns. About 6 weeks later I recieved a very nice thank you letter from them staing the change would be made to their records. It was kind of plesent to see a friendly letter from them. And hand signed at the bottom. I put it away with the rest of my paper work.

[ZLP]

Thanks Guys for all your help. I strongly suspected that this person was full of it and just trying to show-off. But even so, whenever I hear of something off the wall like that I like to get a second opinion(s). After all, you never know what sort of new, crazy laws will be thought up next!
Thanks again,
ZLP