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Army Wants Tsmg Back!


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#1 kyle

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 07:37 PM

http://www.subguns.c...cgi?read=465264
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#2 Sgt

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 09:59 PM

lionhart--
Didn't your attorney try to get the scope back? If they dropped the charges, wasn't that an admission that the agent was in the wrong and should return the item?
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#3 Z3BigDaddy

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 10:05 PM

He was able to summons 12 LEO's to a roadblock in five minutes for a scope? blink.gif It takes us 30 minutes to get one unit to a mva.....
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#4 Walter63a

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 10:42 PM

Do any of you loyal Americans, especially Lionhart, get the strong impression that the following just might be coming true before our very eyes? ohmy.gif blink.gif mad.gif cool.gif
user posted image
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#5 philasteen

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 07:31 AM

Since the gentleman in question bought the gun from a dealer, he may in fact have good title to it regardless of the fact that the federal government only loaned the gun to the PD in question.

UCC 2-403(2) allows a merchant who has a voidable title to a chattel to pass on good title to a bona fide purchaser for value if that merchant regularly engages in selling that type of chattel. The PD gave the gun to the dealer with voidable title, and the dealer had voidable title. However, once the gun passed through the dealer's hands, 2-403 operated to create good title and it became lawful property of the buyer. Of course, we are at the bizzare gray area where federal law intersects state law, so 2-403 may be trumped.

UCC 2-403(2) has been adopted in 49 or so of the 50 states.

I hope the gentleman in question gets an attorney and fights this charge. Furthermore, the NFA community as a whole needs to form a legal defense fund to help fight this case, or we will see more ex-govt Thompsons seized down the road.
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#6 Sgt

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 08:23 AM

Even if the guy had to defend himself, it seems that it would be better than just giving up. The vibes I get from this is that government agencies can do anything they damn want, since they have assumed the role of defining the grey areas of the law. The victims are hesitant to challenge them because of the attorney fees. Hmmm, I wonder if you can bring law suits against the misguided agents rather than the agency.
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#7 Norm

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 08:44 AM

They say that a sword cuts both ways........

Does this mean that someone in the Army can be charged with an illegal sale of an NFA weapon?

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#8 Z3BigDaddy

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 02:01 PM

His attys advice was probably prudent when you take all the parts of the story... They were on high alert in the area as similar items had been stolen from a nearby military base. I found the story but will leave it up to LH to post it…..
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#9 Walter63a

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 02:14 PM

Phil, I hear exactly what you are saying. This is not the USA I grew up in. Something has definitely changed for the worse, since at least the 1960's.
Just today I found this article from the Washington Post, not exactly anyone's idea of a forum for conservative thought.

http://www.washingto...2400746_pf.html

The [our] FBI asks the U.S.Congress for the power to seize personal and private documents (medical records, books ordered records, gun purchase records, etc.) of U.S. citizens/subjects (without warrants)!!! ohmy.gif blink.gif mad.gif cool.gif

Regards, Walter
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#10 DougStump

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 04:12 PM

First, I am retired Air Force and have been involved with a couple of AF OSI inquisitions. I suspect that either Mr. Bement is trying to stir up trouble, or one of his friends is trying to pull a joke on him.

1. The Army CID (or AFOSI) has NO jurisdiction off of the military base (post, reservation, etc). If they were looking for government property (as I have seen happen before), the search warrant is served by the local police or sheriff with OSI or CID there to “advise” them.

2. If they were looking for Government property, they would not call first. They show up, see #1 above.

3. Any of his “friends” could easily acquire the information that is on the Form 4 when he had the TSMG out to the range (make, cal, serial #) and they might even know that he had moved. Then call him and rattle his cage.

If faced with this type of phone call, I would look up the Army CID phone number in the phone book (or call information. Then call the number and ask if “Capt XYZ” still works there and could I talk to him? I’ll bet an ice cold coke they never heard of him!

Just my two cents worth.

Doug Stump


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#11 Z3BigDaddy

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 04:50 PM


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE AREA BRIEFLY - PUYALLUP: 2 ARRESTED FOR TRYING TO SELL NIGHT GOGGLES; [1]
Victor M. Gonzalez / The News Tribune. The News Tribune. Tacoma, Wash.: Oct 21, 1995. pg. B.2
Abstract (Document Summary)
The goggles are not one of the 13 pairs of $6,000 goggles missing from Fort Lewis, fort spokesman George Polich said. In looking for whoever took those goggles, 120 soldiers of an artillery brigade at the fort were confined to their headquarters for nearly a month last summer.

Full Text (153 words)
Copyright Tacoma News, Inc. Oct 21, 1995
Two men were arrested Thursday for trying to sell a pair of night vision goggles originally owned by the Secret Service, Fort Lewis officials said.

The goggles are not one of the 13 pairs of $6,000 goggles missing from Fort Lewis, fort spokesman George Polich said. In looking for whoever took those goggles, 120 soldiers of an artillery brigade at the fort were confined to their headquarters for nearly a month last summer.

The fort's Criminal Investigation Division is still seeking the thieves in that case, Polich said.

The two arrested Thursday were stopped at 3:55 p.m. in a blue Rolls-Royce near Washington 512 and Pioneer Avenue East, a Pierce County sheriff's officials said. They put up no resistance and were booked into Pierce County Jail.

The officials could not say why the two were stopped or provide any information about the men.

The investigation "will probably revert to the FBI," Polich said.






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#12 John Jr

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 05:50 PM

I think this whole thing is another hoax. Its all bullshit to stir up the gun community. I have seen this happen before.

Somebody is getting a good laugh out of the whole thing.

rolleyes.gif
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#13 v188

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 07:50 PM

I don't know where to start, there's so much wrong here. For what it's worth, I am a retired Army CID Agent, so I know a little bit of what I'm gong to list.

I don't know about the Sacramento deal on Bowers, I suppose I could call around and check.

However, people are wrong if they don't think the Military Criminal Investigative Organization mcio don't have authority off base or on civilians. In fact, the Navy, some Air Force and some Army agents are civilians. They are federal agents, with full arrest authority. period. that said, you don't work cases that aren't related to military matters.

The goof at Lewis obviously was wrong. I didn't get there until the late 90's, but I can't recall any 40 year old male working investigations, so I can't help you ID him. It sounds to me that he was WAY off base, and I'm surpirsed that your attorney didn't mention a Bivens action against the guy. I would request a FOIA of the ROI, and then have your attorney review it. I also would demand that your property be returned. It's obvious that the .mil sells off lots of stuff. That said, ...if... property is stolen, we would track it down, where ever it was located. If the party appeared to purchase it legally he wouldn't be bothered, but if he knew it was stolen? Usually refer to the us atty's office for indictment.

I could address lots of points made, but....

Get a FOIA in and get a copy of your file, hq is located at Ft Belvoir.
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#14 Roland, Headless Thompson Gunner

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 09:34 PM

Don't know if this has any bearing or not but according to Sheldon S. Cohen, Commissioner of Internal Revenue at the time of the 68 amnesty, "facts or evidence submitted in registering a weapon could not be used in a criminal prosecution arising out of a prior violatoin of the law" Seems to me amnesty means amnesty and the gun was registered and legally transferred thereafter. I don't see how anyone could, including the Feds could lay claim to it.
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#15 October1971

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 06:24 PM

I posted a reply on the other board that ran this story.
Abbreviated here:

I registered M14 in amnesty (came back as a receiver only in a duffle bag and built up in the states into a complete gun.)

I advertised in SGN 1974.
BATF in Washington DC read the ad and called me. Asked how I got it.
Told them amnesty gun. They said okay, I was one step ahead of them.

Year later local BATF agent called me up came to my office with letter from BATF headquarters saying wanted me surrender the gun to govt. I pointed out to agent that was total amnesty, no prison, no fine, etc.

Agent said govt taking position M14 stolen and could file civil action to recover stolen govt. property.

Had already transferred gun to an atty class 3 dealer in S Florida and told agent that.

I later told the atty in S Florida BATF looking to get it back.
He later said he refused to give it back and they never did anything beyond that.

See the string of posts on subguns board for an expanded story and how bizarre this thing got before it was all over.

Good luck on this and glad you have representation.

Bill Douglas
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#16 skoda

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 10:39 AM

How does one file for a FOIA history on their NFA firearms?
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#17 philasteen

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 12:03 PM

A sample FOIA letter can be found on the web at http://www.ar15.com/...3&f=14&t=165724
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#18 skoda

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 04:17 PM

Thank you very much Philasteen.
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#19 EM1/SS

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 05:14 PM

I wonder if a FOIA request would be enough to start someone looking for "lost US Property".


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#20 Ltcboy

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Posted 22 September 2005 - 02:02 AM

We did so the following day. He stated that NO CITIZEN can posses Night Vision manufactured for the US Government. NO Citizen can posses Night Vision sold by the Manufacture that supplies the US Government (BS). He went on to say, that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES can an individual own ANY Firearm in which the Government had owned originally, including WW2 1911's, Garands, Carbines, Ect.

Did you ask him if he ever heard of the DCM or the CMP?
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