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Valuation Question; 1921/28 Navy


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#1 SIGNUTZ

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 02:14 PM

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Edited by SIGNUTZ, 28 July 2013 - 11:04 AM.

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#2 John Jr

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 09:22 PM

If its not all original, the silly colt collectors wont pay the real premium prices for it (such as 30K and up).

I recon you can get around 25 to 28K.


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#3 Jay Baker

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 09:31 PM

That's a beautiful piece of wood and steel.
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#4 Roland, Headless Thompson Gunner

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 09:44 AM

Despite the sellers game playing, If the going rate for Colt SN# 1616 is 23.5k, how is this refinished, not all original, overstamp worth a premium over 1616? As good as it does look.

If folks want to combat Thompson greed and keep prices where we can afford them, lets stop raising the valuation everytime another gun comes up.
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#5 Lotusnut

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 09:48 AM

QUOTE (Roland, Headless Thompson Gunner @ Jul 21 2005, 09:44 AM)
Despite the sellers game playing, If the going rate for Colt SN# 1616 is 23.5k, how is this refinished, not all original, overstamp worth a premium over 1616? As good as it does look.

If folks want to combat Thompson greed and keep prices where we can afford them, lets stop raising the valuation everytime another gun comes up.

Because the seller is trying to gather as many of those 23.5k cashiers check as possible....

As far as this Navy gun is concerned, probably closer to 30k and over based on recent sales, as much as everyone here would like them to be lower....


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#6 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 11:45 AM

Signutz,

I think you are correct in believing that this TSMG has been re finished. It is impossible to determine what is what relying on photographs, but making an assessment within the limitations of these photos, the "U.S. Navy" appears quite faint, a refinish might be the reason (or it could be the lighting). If there is absolutely no wear behind the grip frame, or around the fire select and safety levers, and what appears to be a scratch on the right side frame rail that seems blued over (or it could be the light), it is unlikely the finish is 80+ years old.

How and why would a 100% original perfect condition Colt TSMG now be sporting replacement wood? Could it be the original wood would defy the near perfect finish of the steel? Was the original wood misplaced? How did the experts you spoke to explain it? And what value did they suggest for the piece?

Figuring a refinish and the replacement wood, I would imagine the price in today's market would be around $26K. The guy who is having the Fed EX game with the way less than 80% condition (as Ron K remembers it from 1973) Colt TSMG for $23,500, is probably under priced considering WWII 1928's seem to get action at the $24K price.

Phil,
Mike's attempt to procure any Colt TSMg from a PD at a cut rate (or some may say proper) price fell flat. As much as we would all like to roll back the years to when NFA items were ignored by most of the population and relatively cheap, devaluing appraisals on TSMG's in today's market for the sake of some altruistic reason to keep prices low would be the equivalent of holding the ocean back with a broom.

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#7 SIGNUTZ

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 01:39 PM

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Edited by SIGNUTZ, 28 July 2013 - 11:04 AM.

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#8 gijive

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 02:36 PM

QUOTE (SIGNUTZ @ Jul 21 2005, 01:39 PM)
I have watched two COLT Bridgeport models sell for $24K/$25K each so feel that a real Navy model must be valued higher.

Signutz,

There are no Colt manufactured Thompsons that have a Bridgeport, CT address on the receiver. This continual reference to "Bridgeport" Thompsons has apparently really confused some people. Thompsons should be identified by their manufacturer and the time frame when they were built as opposed to referring to every Thompson, other than those marked with West Hurley, N.Y., as a "Bridgeport."

The Navy model Thompsons were only overstamped Colt Model 1921A's. All Colt Thompsons were Model of 1921A when they were manufactured.
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#9 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 04:11 PM

QUOTE
One must remember that not that many years ago few cared which wood part went on which gun and it was common to swap parts out. The police department history on this gun (perhaps one of it’s other owners) may explain why it was never refitted with a technically correct set of wood to complete the “collector” value of the gun. The non-original wood did not bother any of the experts that I showed the gun to in the past. They too have seen plenty of great examples with non-original wood stocks.


Signutz,

Jefferson County Sheriffs Department in Beaumont, Texas had at least four Colt TSMG's in their inventory. The fact that a PD would not care about "correct" wood remaining on one of their Colt TSMG's is quite true, but unless they had several WWII Savage/AO 1928's in their inventory as well, where and when did this non Remington manufactured wood come from? Sure they might have mixed up buttstocks that easily detached, but why then put a nickel latch assembly in a WWII buttstock and substitute the front grip especially on a perfect condition firearm that was supposedly never used?

Of course many TSMG dealers swapped out wood from their other Colt TSMG's to come up with the best complete example. But they managed, for the most part, to use Remington/Colt wood. Then again if a Colt TSMG passed through Curtis Earl's hands, it would not be unusual for the next owner to find non "original" wood and not even WWII wood on their new acquisition. But that would be for them to discover.

It would also follow that the PD wouldn't care all that much about the condition of the weapon either considering it was paid for with tax payer funds. I mean either a perfect condition Colt TSMG was carefully put away in a PD's armory and forgotten, or it saw some use and, therefore, show the usual signs of use including scratches, some blue loss and the nice character the wood would have picked up during all those years from shooting and even handling.

Since this Colt TSMG was in JCSD's possession up until 1989, it would seem more likely that the subsequent owner replaced the wood. Now "original" wood, in spite of its condition, was still very much important to collectors and NFA buyers long before 1989. So again why would a specimen in this "original" condition be used as a wood parts gun? It doesn't seem practical. But a weapon that was sent out for refinishing would have all of its wood taken off and maybe misplaced, or like I said before, the wood was not up to the new condition of the firearm. For at least two wood pieces to be MIA on such an unusually excellent condition specimen is contradictory to a weapon that was hardly ever shot never mind handled.

A true Colt TSMG collector "nut," not to mention the rest of the firearm collecting community, would be very much interested in a Colt TSMG in this 99% "original" finish. Gordon Herigstadt does not mention the condition of this particular serial number is his periodical. One might think that one of the handful of 99% "original" condition Colt's would be worthy of some mention about the condition. However, relying on GH's scholarship regarding the information in his periodical has become less and less comprehensive and accurate.

I did mention the "U.S. NAVY" stamp, as well as the "8" added by Auto-Ord after 1927 to selected serial numbers, because these stampings were fainter, yet still very much prominent, than the Colt stampings/roll marks of 1921-22. So even the most careful of refinishing jobs to the receiver/frame would tend to blur those marks.

If this is indeed a 99% perfect "original" condition blued Colt TSMG, then Jim Falter has some competition for the "#1 Colt TSMG in America" that was crowned back in 1992 by Terry Williams. Just get the proper wood and you could have another $100K TSMG.

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#10 SIGNUTZ

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 04:51 PM

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Edited by SIGNUTZ, 28 July 2013 - 11:04 AM.

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#11 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 05:25 PM

Signutz,

I wish you indeed had (what those experts who have examined your TSMG concluded to be original finish) the 99% Colt TSMG, aside from the wood. This would really have been a monkey wrench in that silly contest as related on http://colttommygunn...d.com/id18.html
If these dealers would make said declaration on paper and sign it, I think it would be just as official as how they determined #167 to be in "99% perfect original condition."

While it is indeed possible that a Remington/Colt buttstock could fracture/split/crack at the slide, one would think it would take more stress on it than just being stored in a static position, and in a very protective environment, considering the condition of the finish, for that to happen. Considering the amount of excellent condition Remington/Colt buttstocks on well used Colt TSMG's, it is a stretch. Again, I am in agreement with your own assessment that the firearm has been reblued and look to these nuances for substantiation.
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