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The Infamous "grip-slide" In Road To Perdition


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#21 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 03:55 PM

QUOTE
Notice where the lock indention is on the rail and also notice Tom's index finger on the front grip. Doesn't it look like he is pushing a button on the front of the grip?
I have always thought there would be a button on the front of the grip (similar to the way the forestock is attachecd on some break-open shotguns, with a button at the tip of the forestock). The wooden grip would have a metal piece inletted into it that would accept the grooves in the rail just like the buttstock assembly. The lock mechanism would be at the front and engage some kind of spring-clip.


ZLP

That would surely be a precarious position to mount a release mechanism for the vertical foregrip. I could just see someone accidentally pressing into the release while firing the weapon. The TSMG goes one way and the shooters hand, with grip now separated, goes another.
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#22 21 smoker

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 07:46 PM

" I could just see someone accidentally pressing into the release while firing the weapon. The TSMG goes one way and the shooters hand, with grip now separated, goes another. "

Hence the term "Spray `n` Pray".... wink.gif
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#23 Zamm

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 08:40 PM

Okay,
Let's see.
Damon, The only other shot that shows anything is the following. You can see the cut rails
in the grip mount. It is also thicker then a factory mount.

user posted image

user posted image.

Here is a shot of the Annihilator II.

user posted image

I called the 2 phone numbers that were listed in the earlier part of this thread.
Both were Harry Lu, niether works in film.
I'm still going to try and locate Mr. Lu, I really am curious about this mod. and would love to know why the gun was stored with the reciever apart from the frame. ( I know, just the movies, put the gun together like James Bond).

I think Damon's idea of positioning the lock where the grip screw is would be workable, removing the possibility of accidentally
releasing the grip while firing.
Doug Richardson wrote and explained the 3 types of Thompson grip mounts.
Wow, incredible knowledge!
I'm not sure , other then a semi, or full auto Westy, if this would be a feasible modification to do to old
Thomson, say a Savage... But, who knows wink.gif

Okay guys, Later.
Z
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#24 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 09:21 PM

QUOTE
aut-ord-co:
cool info! I'll have a look at Tracies book as soon as I get home. Wonder why they dropped this, aside from the logistics of simplicity.
Best, Z

Zamm,
If you were unaware of this feature on the Annihilator as of this afternoon, where did you locate this photo? Is this from a Hill TCN article? Since the vertical grip does have a screw securing it to the grip mount, that pin would mean the entire grip and mount would be released. Now does this release slide forward to remove it from the receiver (problematic for the barrel fins) or does it just drop out the bottom? Maybe this is why it was abruptly abandoned.

Surely something this radically different from the production Colt TSMG's would warrant an explanation and pic of the Annihilator with mount & grip removed. Is Hill holding this back for his third TSMG book effort?

At least the prop department used a WH for their mount experimentation for the film

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#25 Zamm

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 05:05 AM

Arthur,

Yes, the photo is from Tracie's book ( *all rights reserved*) with most text stripped away for the post.

I don't know the mechanics involved in this, hell, as you said, I did not know about it at all until
yesterday afternoon! dry.gif

I would be interested in seeing how this grip worked, perhaps a photo of the grip and mount would be nice.

I'm sure that gun in Mr. Hanks hand is a Westy.

Z
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#26 Zamm

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 05:23 AM

You know, one has to take a step back for a moment.

As Doug R. said, "all is not what it seems in the movies".
The shot of Hanks assembling the gun may very well just be a modified replica model, with a real shooter being used for the firing sequences.
But, if you veiw this scene, the gut's inside that reciever look really good....
I quess we won't know until one of us can actually speak to the guy who made it.
Best, Z
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#27 45wheelgun

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 06:02 AM

QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Aug 16 2005, 09:21 PM)

At least the prop department used a WH for their mount experimentation for the film


Well let me be the first to volunteer my WH-28 to this project. I would love to see this modification become reality. Of course then we are going to have to make a replica case for it to go into.....

Edited by 45wheelgun, 17 August 2005 - 06:02 AM.

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#28 DC Chris

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 04:39 PM

I would be willing to try this as well, provided that the modifications don't permanently alter my gun or require massive drilling on my nice Dan Block grip... but I do have a surplus WH grip who would be forced to participate.... smile.gif
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#29 Merry Ploughboy

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 06:26 PM

Quite frankly, other than to package in a "violin" case (and the "cool" factor) I see no reason to perform this modification. The gun actually takes more space in the RTP case than one with the grip attached normally. As noted by others, the grip is undoubtably less secure than with the normal mounting.

MHO, YMMV, TEHO, etc.

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#30 Zamm

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 06:31 PM

Merry Ploughboy,
I think you hit the nail on the head, at least in my case,
with the "cool" factor. biggrin.gif
I just love putting on and removing the buttstock on my Westy.
Twice the fun with a sliding front grip.
As for being secure, if done properly, I don't see how it wouldn’t be.
Those 21/28 buttstocks seem to hold on pretty well.
Best, Z
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#31 Zamm

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Posted 18 August 2005 - 10:39 AM

Phil,
Funny how this stuff takes off on itself!
I would never modify the fantastic grip mount that PK made me. It is, as you say, a work of art!
I am seriously toying with the idea of picking up a Kahr 27 just with this "slide Grip" in mind.
If somebody, such as Damon, comes up with a product, I could see doing a "new" Kahr around it.
But, it would be on the gun, permanetly, like the original mount.

As long as I've owned the Westy 27 ( from 75') I've allways wanted a real
grip mount, with the form fitting hold on the barrel fin.
PK made that a reality. I would not mess with it.

But, on a new Kahr... Hmmm, could be the start of another project for the checkbook! biggrin.gif
Best, Z
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#32 Lancer

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Posted 18 August 2005 - 10:41 AM

QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Aug 18 2005, 11:11 AM)
Talk about compact! The receiver is about 13". My latest 9mm barrel is 8", with a custom TSMG-type comp making it about 9" overall. Comp is inletted into a horizontal foregrip, Manlicher style. Add the 72-rd Suomi drum. Whole thing comes apart in a couple minutes and fits into an attache case

Phil,
Do you have any pics you can post. You know how we all love pics. biggrin.gif
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#33 TommyGunner

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Posted 18 August 2005 - 11:39 AM

Phil,

What the hell are you talking about? You said:

"I'm getting the feeling that none of you guys who are discussing the easily removable front grip have ever had one of these grip bars off...or have tried to do so, even after the barrel has been removed. It is probably REALLY ON THERE. As in tons of pressure."

"even after the barrel is removed" Uhhhh this is the only way you can take off a gripmount no? "tons of pressure" not quite so. Best to have a competent gunsmith do the install though if you are having so much trouble.

You also said:

"I had to devise a way to hold the receiver VERY tightly in a HEAVY vise...so tight as to almost risk destroying it. That is after the barrel is off. The bar should slide right out. It doesn't."

First of all why are you holding your reciever in a vise? Once one has seen Doug Richardson's setup a vise is back to the stone age. Why not just hold the gripmount in the vise and beat on the nose of the reciever with a hammer and block of wood. Either way is just as dangerous. And as far as the bar should just slide out...is that why Doug R. also used a slide hammer to remove them? In fact I had a conversation with Doug several months ago about removing the gripmount with the slide hammer and we both agreed that they come right off with the setup. Some take more work with others but they come right off.

We have removed many barrels and gripmounts and have never had such a problem.

Then you said:

"The last part of it, which slides into the receiver groove, is bent a couple degrees, to give it a springy force fit. But that springiness is like that of the springs on a locomotive chassis. This is thick metal. To make it so you can remove it with your hands, you have to heat that bar very hot and bend out most of the bend. "

Sounds like a pretty good way to ruin the gripmount to me. You could take a little off the piece that rests on the barrel. Or if you wanted to save the original gripmount use one of the Kahr 1/2in MILLED gripmounts to be modified. I have one in my hands right now and can't believe the quality...beautiful! And of course they left the bend out of it so it is ready to go! Save your orginal parts.

Then you blurted:

"Next problem. If you have it loose enough so so can get it in and out with your hand, it will probably be too loose when the gun is assembled and you are shooting it. I don't think there is any way to eliminate this problem without resorting to a carefully thought out threaded locking screw arrangement. No spring loaded pin setup will do it right."

Did you ever think that there may be a different way to do this other than a removable gripmount?

On the quick change barrel setup you said:

"With either method, you can replace the drilled grip bar with a standard one, without the hole, anytime. Your gun is then strictly stock, except for the threaded hole in the bottom of the grip bar channel, which is now hidden by the bar. I keep one of PK's undrilled grip bars on hand (a work of art in itself), in case I want to dispense with the quick change mod. But that isn't likely. I'm having a ball with it."

Now it is such a piece of cake to change out a gripmount? And when you "dispense" with the quick change mod does your barrel turn down to headspace, sight line up and hold everything together tightly with the same whitness marks?...???!!! There are several ways to go about the quick change barrel setup. It depends on what you are doing. It would be easy enough to add this feature to the detachable foregrip and the two mods would compliment each other nicely. Additionally you made modifications to the reciever that cannot be undone. That is not always neccissary. As much as you modify your gun it really seem that you would hate to see anyone else do it. Funny Phil.


"Once again, please don't carve up your Thompsons just because of a movie, where they probably used a wooden prop gun anyway. Even a West Hurley doesn't deserve that. They are decent guns, once they are debugged and tuned. And look at what they cost now. A full auto WH is around $14K, right?"

Can't figure you out Phil...what are you really up to...something for sure. Who said that what I am planning would modify your original equiptment in any way? What we have planned will not require any modifications to your gun...just to swap out some equiptment is all. Keep making things up when you have no idea what we are planning. I would think one would want this kind of BS to be kept from infecting the board. So tell us all Phil. What REALLY gives here. I think it is as plain as that big giant screw head hanging below your reciever to anyone who reads this thread. biggrin.gif

Best,
Damon
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#34 TommyGunner

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 03:22 PM

Phil,

You are absolutely right. I will skip the name calling and argumentative BS and stick to the facts concerning your posts.

You just wrote:

"My apologies to anybody whose expertise I unintentionally slighted, including Damon."

I apreciate your apology but I think it goes a little deeper than that. It seems to me that you saw a post where I announced my intention to develop and produce a detachable foregrip and had some interest from other board members. For some reason you decided to make up a shock and awe horror story about the skill level needed to change out an ordinary gripmount and bring the competency of my services into question...not outright but in a subtle kind of way. Fortunately you are full of contraditions. Key Examples that you agree on and stand by:

"I'm getting the feeling that none of you guys who are discussing the easily removable front grip have ever had one of these grip bars off...or have tried to do so, even after the barrel has been removed. It is probably REALLY ON THERE. As in tons of pressure."

Ok...my gripmount is on there with tons of pressure. May need a professional

"I had to devise a way to hold the receiver VERY tightly in a HEAVY vise...so tight as to almost risk destroying it. That is after the barrel is off. The bar should slide right out. It doesn't."

Almost RISK DESTROYING IT! The bar dosen't slide right out! Sounds like these gripmounts are a real hassle to get out even for a gunsmith. I am terrified!

Now folks are terrified of the complexity of the job. Time to bring Damon's ability into question.

"You could get in over your head (or your gunsmith's head) and destroy or seriously damage a receiver, just for a pointless mod. "

Gee...wonder what gunsmith he could be talking about? Oh wait the one on this thread I was talking to. Guess I better not let that guy at TommyGunner do it. And the throat slit:

"If you do want to take the thing off, don't let anybody but PK do it. " BTW No offense intended to PK he is an excellent Thompsonsmith. I have held his work in my hand and consider it TOP NOTCH!

Then in the next post you backpedaled and said "I just wanted to caution anybody who might do something, on their own, which might not work out the way they had hoped." Which is it, the folks doing it on thier own or the onese using another "gunsmith"?

I understand you say it was unintentional and that you stand behind your assessment of the difficulty of gripmount removal. In fact...you built your whole post and argument around said assessment. You have a tiny problem with this though.

You said:

"It appears that you (and or Doug) have not run into a real toughy" and "I really learned something. The degree of difficulty was totally unexpected, but it again reminded me to never assume anything."

Now this can only go one way or another. Either you have changed many Thompson gripmounts and have much experience or you have changed few Thompson gripmounts and have very limited experience here.

IF YOU DO HAVE EXPERIENCE AND KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT IN TELLING EVERYONE THAT THE GRIPMOUNT IS SO DIFFICULT TO REPLACE IS THE NORM THEN.....WHY DO YOU CALL THE ONE EXAMPLE YOU HAVE TO REFFER TO AS A "TOUGHY" AND THAT YOU LEARNED FROM THE UNEXPECTED EXPERIENCE? AN EXPERIENCED PERSON WOULD NOT BE SUPRISED BY THE NORMAL TOUGHY. SURELY ONE WHO HAS SUCH EXPERIENCE KNOWS THAT TOUGHY IS THE NORM. IF IT WAS THE NORM I AM SURE WE WOULD HAVE RUN INTO ONE OF THE PROLIFIC "TOUGHYS" THAT ARE SCARING THE CRAP OUT OF ALL THAT EVEN THINK TO REMOVE THEM WITH THIER "GUNSMITH".

OR

IS THE THE THOMPSON YOU HAVE REALLY THE ONLY ONE YOU HAVE EXPERIENCE WORKING ON AND IT JUST HAPPENED TO BE THE ADMITED, ACTUALLY RARE "TOUGHY"? IF THIS IS THE CASE HOW COULD YOU JUSTIFY YOU ASSESSMENT IS BASED ON EXPERIENCE AND FACT?

AT ANY RATE THE OLD TOUGHY IS WHAT YOU HAVE BUILT YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT ON. SO WHICH IS IT? CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS EXPERIENCED OR NOT? LYING OR IGNORANT. TOUGHY THE NORM OR TOUGHY THE RARE? AT ANY RATE, THERE IS NO MORE DANGER REMOVING THE TOUGHY OR THE EASY ONES...JUST MORE WORK TO IT ONCE YOU HAVE THE PROPER METHODS.

So what was that you were apologizing for anyway?

Damon

P.S. Could you please detail how you designed your quick change barrel setup that did not require barrel modification, only minor reciever modification, gripmount modification and switches back and forth between detachable and permanent setup with just a gripmount change? Must be some excellent engineering. The board could benefit from this.
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#35 TommyGunner

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 04:07 PM

uhhh. not me! Sorry Really. First time I stepped out of line. Won't happen again I promise. ohmy.gif
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#36 TommyGunner

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 04:29 PM

NOW THAT'S JUST CREEPY! YOU HAVE TOO MUCH TIME ON YOUR HANDS UP ON THAT FARM DEVLIN.
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#37 OldFalGuy

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 06:52 PM

Longest group of gripe post I have seen on this board in a long time-

I for one, didn't read into Phil's post anything derogatory about anyone- mere advisory that an ordinary gunsmith might not know how to best remove the grip bar- I doubt there are 2 in central texas could do it and I wouldn't want them to learn on mine anyway. I know of PK but wasn't aware of who else here did custom/ordinary Thompson work/repair. THink we need a list of who they are and what they can do and not do.

Thing is, it might be possible to make a slide that utilizes the existing grip bar- at least for those that are really creative and have the talent- I am not one of them, but evidently there are several here. Regardless of anything else, Phil thanks for the warning.

Mark
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#38 PK.

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 09:02 PM

I’m gonna try to keep out of the mud and offer some insight based on extensive experience, as well as study of the prints.

As designed, the grip mount (correct name) should be an easy fit to the receiver, usually requiring no tools at all. Some armorers seemed to feel it necessary to stake the flange on the grip mount to create a drive fit. Some get rusted in a bit. Both of these scenarios will respond to pretty normal removal techniques.

WH decided that they needed to epoxy the parts together on some guns. These can either be very tough or not, depending on the bond. A well set one may require heating to soften the epoxy befor normal removal techniques can be successfully employed.

Early Kahr guns used heavy duty Loctite and will respond to heat as well.

The current Kahr products are another matter all together. These are made to be heavy press fit and require special tooling to remove. I have not tried one of Doug’s slide hammer fixtures, but am not confident it would be effective, not being designed for this recent development. I do know they don’t want to come off with any hammer I know of without hurting something, although persistence may be the key. I use tooling I designed and built for use with a 3 ton press. I can tell you that the press groans befor they let go. Yes, I have done many, this is not an anomaly.

FWIW

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#39 amafrank

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 09:37 PM

To bypass the whole problem of removing the grip mount and its attendant disasters, why not make a dovetail that bolts on the grip mount using the existing screw.....Deerslayer can make an A-1 grip that would be inletted for attaching iron which would pop on the dovetail.....no mods to the gun, no angry gunsmiths with scratches on customer guns and many happy tommiegunners.
I think this requires I make one for my gun now.....
Frank

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#40 kilroyjones

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Posted 20 August 2005 - 06:31 AM

Just want to throw my .02 cents in.

Why not mill a half round cut into the grip frame the same as the half cut used to mount the stock to the receiver. Inlet a spring loaded lever assembly that will engage the notch (half round cut) A rod passing thru the grip screw hole in the grip could be used to push against the lever to disengage it from the grip mount notch. Basically a scaled down version of the Thompson detachable stock hardware.

I would think on non-collectible tommys (like my Kahr) you could mill the notch without removing the grip mount from the frame. Just place the barreled receiver in the mill. It looks good on paper, so now everyone can poke holes in it with logic and reality wink.gif

KJ
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