Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Need Some Tips For Tracking My 1921ac


  • Please log in to reply
20 replies to this topic

#1 CAL7

CAL7

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 22 posts

Posted 09 August 2005 - 09:18 PM

I am waiting for the transfers on my new baby, and would like to research its life. I have gotten a lot of good tips here - what else can I do? I am going to try FOIA (but I guess I need to wait until I actually own it, right?), but I don't know what other resources there might be. Any help? Thanks.
  • 0

#2 philasteen

philasteen

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Donor
  • 1118 posts

Posted 09 August 2005 - 10:22 PM

Cal7 - as you suspected, only the registered owner of the gun can file the FOIA, so you need to wait until your form 4 clears.
  • 0

#3 Ron A

Ron A

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 641 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Helena, Montana
  • Interests:Collector of Thompson guns & items<br>Colt single actions<br>Native American items - pre 1900

Posted 09 August 2005 - 11:17 PM

The sad part of the FOIA is that what you will be tracking are tax records and those are not released in total. What you will get will be a copy of forms "black out" as to name, address etc: It will give you some idea of dates of transfer and little else.
It will be some help if there have been transfers to different people. you just will not know to whom or where.

  • 0

#4 Sig

Sig

    Respected Member and Board Benefactor

  • Moderator
  • 1630 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 August 2005 - 04:18 AM

The first source is Gordon Herigstad's book. After that the FOIA and then just hardwork and good luck.
The link to his website is below.
Gordon's webpage link
Congrats and good luck.
Post pics when you get it.
michael
  • 0

#5 CAL7

CAL7

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 22 posts

Posted 10 August 2005 - 11:37 AM

The Gordon Herigstad web page says the Fourth Edition of the book is sold out. Are there going to be more printed; or perhaps a Fifth Edition? Would anyone with the book care to look up my S/N (2966) and let me in on whether it is identified? I have Tracie Hill's and it shows the gun originally going to the Columbus, Ohio police department.
  • 0

#6 Arthur Fliegenheimer

Arthur Fliegenheimer

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3456 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 August 2005 - 01:52 PM

The only other info GH has on #2966 is that it was one of over 120 Colt TSMG's famed Auto-Ord-Co salesman Eddie Richardson (ex- Maumee, Ohio police officer) sold between 1928 and 1933. Where your TSMG has been since the Columbus. Ohio PD originally bought it apparently has not been recorded publicly.

If GH is sold out of his 4th edition, perhaps he might consider correcting the numerous flaws of omissions and mis identifications in his previous editions and updating owners of these editions before ever attempting to put out a 5th edition for $300.

  • 0

#7 Sig

Sig

    Respected Member and Board Benefactor

  • Moderator
  • 1630 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 August 2005 - 02:57 PM

Oh come on Arthur who has a better source of information?
I will send them funds for their book.
In the meantime I will buy Gordon's next or 5th Edition when it becomes available.

  • 0

#8 CAL7

CAL7

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 22 posts

Posted 10 August 2005 - 02:57 PM

Thank you, Arthur.

Edited by CAL7, 10 August 2005 - 02:57 PM.

  • 0

#9 1921A

1921A

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 533 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 August 2005 - 03:49 PM

CAL7:

One of my Colt guns, #8887, also came from Columbus PD. They were all traded to a dealer in the early 1970s. I found mine for sale at an OGCA show in Columbus in the mid 1980s. Did you contact CPD? Their records division should be able to tell you the name of the dealer or LE supply company that received the guns.

1921A
  • 0

#10 Waffen Und Bier

Waffen Und Bier

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 642 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Like the name says "Guns and beer" (and really hot chicks who like guns and beer).

Posted 10 August 2005 - 04:39 PM

Do they include the names and addresses of PD's and other gummit entities who have owned the weapons? I don't see why the shouldn't as those entities don't pay taxes and are public entities not protected by public records laws. They should also release the names of any companies that manufactured the items (but that's just my thoughts on it).
  • 0

#11 Merry Ploughboy

Merry Ploughboy

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 893 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 August 2005 - 05:08 PM

Waffen,

That's a "No" to PD name and location, at least in the case of my '28.
Others may not have it blacked out on their copies.

MP
  • 0

#12 Arthur Fliegenheimer

Arthur Fliegenheimer

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3456 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 August 2005 - 05:13 PM

QUOTE
Oh come on Arthur who has a better source of information?
I will send them funds for their book.
In the meantime I will buy Gordon's next or 5th Edition when it becomes available.

Sig

Initially, I was impressed with and grateful for GH's periodical. But after consulting the book on numerous occasions, I find that instead of feeling confident with GH's info, I became frustrated with way too much hearsay material.

A resource for information is only as good as the degree of research, documentation, multiple sources and editing that goes into the compilation of who, when, and where had "X" Colt TSMG. It is laudable that GH endeavored to put out his serial number periodical. However, an authoritative periodical that is heavily relied on for historical background, and even values, of Colt TSMG's can only frustrate buyers of this compilation when slip shod editing, third hand sources used for condition appraisals, and contradictory information taken as fact are disseminated among collectors.

The lack of competing periodicals to GH's does not inoculate him from the accepted standards of historical scholarship. If one takes on the challenge to assemble a dictionary length Colt TSMG serial number "Bible" then they should also have the patience to hold up publication and sale of the periodical until they are assured of the information contained there in and have collected enough information to not have to put out 5 editions in as many years.

  • 0

#13 TD.

TD.

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2911 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 August 2005 - 10:36 PM

Arthur,
I agree with you in principle. I too have been a little disappointed in Gordon’s book at times. However, as Sig was quick to point out – Gordon has the best book in town when it comes to serial numbers – and the great majority of information is correct and not reported elsewhere. Yes, the perfectionist in me begs for a complete and perfect history of all 15,000 Colt Thompsons. However, the realist in me knows this is not possible for one person to accomplish. At the end of the day, I do believe Gordon genuinely cares about the content of his book and does all he can do to make it as good as possible. I will probably not buy the fifth edition, but I will certainly buy the last edition. I will also report all information not reported as well as tell Gordon about any items I come across that are suspect. I feel this is the least I can do to make each edition of Gordon’s book better. I also believe that Gordon, Tracie, Frank and others will publish new books in the future that will correct many errors of the past as well as raise many new questions for us to talk about on this forum.

Cal7 – Welcome to the Thompson Forum. We do not always agree, but some of the best posts come during the disagreements. However, we do try to keep things civil on this board because we all can agree that no one person knows it all then it comes to the “tommygun.” Congratulations on the purchase of your Colt Thompson. Please don’t hesitate to join in when you see a thread that sparks your interest.


  • 0

#14 gijive

gijive

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2415 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Thompson SMG, WWII, Firearms in general.

Posted 11 August 2005 - 06:17 AM

Arthur,

Let me chime in on this one also. Gordon does the best he can and when errors are noted he attempts to correct them. He recently obtained some corrected information on the Chicago Police Department guns and will endeavor to make the changes in his next edition.

Trying to correct collector's lore that has circulated since before Cox published his landmark book is no easy task. Looking into records of guns sold eighty plus years ago is also daunting since in most cases records don't exist anymore. Obviously, most of the information has to come from documentation already written in previous books, publications and historical records. Fortunately, Cox actually examined many guns listed in his original serial number list, so much of the information is correct. Unfortunately, so many of the guns have changed hands and been altered since Cox's book, it is nearly possible to relocate and examine all the guns listed, let alone locate many of the missing serial numbers.

I'm really surprised he locates as many new serial numbers as he does. I don't think these numbers would have ever surfaced in the collector's realm if he hadn't published his book and taken on this monumental project in the first place.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the errors, just putting the task in perspective.
  • 0

#15 Arthur Fliegenheimer

Arthur Fliegenheimer

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3456 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 August 2005 - 10:44 AM

TD & gijive,

GH could mollify the disgruntled by providing the latest updated pages, not just a list of new serial number info, even if it is free, but the actual new pages to be substituted for the outdated pages in the book. Wasn't that the purpose of the binder construction in the first place?

Copy chargers and some other nominal fee would be appropriate to levy the 240 customers who are interested in taking advantage of the complete new page updates. For GH to expect these 240 some owners of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th editions to pay the ever increasing price for the latest periodical is rather mercenary.

Why would anyone want to be the proud owner of more than one $200-$250-$300 obsolete 11 LB veal press?

  • 0

#16 gijive

gijive

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2415 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Thompson SMG, WWII, Firearms in general.

Posted 11 August 2005 - 11:17 AM

QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Aug 11 2005, 10:44 AM)
 
Why would anyone want to be the proud owner of more than one  $200-$250-$300 obsolete 11 LB  veal press? 

Arthur,

Your points are well taken, no argument here.

Regarding the above quote, I enjoy your sense of humor. I got a laugh out of that one!
  • 0

#17 Ron A

Ron A

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 641 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Helena, Montana
  • Interests:Collector of Thompson guns & items<br>Colt single actions<br>Native American items - pre 1900

Posted 11 August 2005 - 11:36 AM

I would like to be able to purchase the new pages or even the entire reprint less cover. It is just not worth it for me to purchase a entire new book each time it come out of print.

  • 0

#18 Arthur Fliegenheimer

Arthur Fliegenheimer

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3456 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 August 2005 - 01:58 PM

gijive,

Much obliged.

Ron A,

That should be another option. Otherwise, what was the point of the purchaser having their own serial numbered book?

  • 0

#19 Merry Ploughboy

Merry Ploughboy

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 893 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 August 2005 - 06:11 PM

To join the "pick on Gordon" (who is a truly nice guy) theme, it would take more than a few pages of replacement to fix the errors in grammar and spelling (e.g., Forth Edition). He does well for an engineer, though. (I'm an engineer and work with engineers).

Also, instead of the $5.95 pewter TSMG pin on the spine, for the big bucks price of the book we should get one of the $31.00 sterling silver ones.

MHO

MP
  • 0

#20 Hyper Sniper

Hyper Sniper

    Regular Member

  • Regular Group
  • 157 posts

Posted 11 August 2005 - 07:31 PM

[COLOR=purple]Guys,


I can appreciate both sides of this debate, and understand well!!! exactly what Aurther is painting on this subject. I have just in the last few months come accross 2 major mistakes listed in the book, and have brought them both to Gordon's attention, but let me say this as some others have covered...the very fact that his book exists, along with his much appreciated time, We have collected much information for us TSMG owners, as well as perspective buyers to be able to track, and we Thompson lovers have contibuted much of this information and updates through contacting Gordon.

We know have a source that is there for us to call, or email new information, from selling a gun, to buying a gun, or serialized L or C Drum, and allows a much faster turn around of info as compared to the past.

Please keep both sides in perspective we have come far compared to the information we had in the 70's or 80's and also remember we did not take on this project, or headache, so lets have some compasion for the one who did.



  • 0