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Removeable Stocks In Mi


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#1 M1Brian

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 11:31 AM

Having read Mad Dog Dans post in regards to the legality of a removable stock on a semi and some of the replies regarding the MI 26/30 law I went to my local PD to check on it. I recently had my A1 redone by PK and wanted to be sure I was legal. I live in a community in Oakland County, MI that to me has a very firearm friendly PD. and have never had any problems with permits or licensing issues. I explained what was done to the gun and that overall measurement of the barrell was legal but with the stock removed the gun measured 29". She called the county gun baord and their interpetation of the law is this. To them when the law says collapseable of foldable they also take it to mean if the stock can come off and the gun is fireable. So off I go tomorrow to register it.

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#2 Merry Ploughboy

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 05:21 PM

M1Brian,

Thanks for the report. Unfortunate as it may be, I believe your Board has properly interpreted the law. You're now the proud owner of a Thompson pistol in the eyes of the Michigan legislature.

MP
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#3 PATHFINDER

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 12:04 AM

QUOTE (M1Brian @ Aug 22 2005, 11:31 AM)
county gun baord (?)

Brian, I also live in Oakland County Mi. I would like contact info for the 'county gun board'. I have a few questions I would like to fly by them.

Also, I thought 26" was the minimum measurement. 26+ inches and still operational (with a 16" barrel) was leagal for a rifle in MI and requiered no special permits. It is when you go under this limit and/or have a barrel of less than 16" you fall inot the SBR catagory and a requiered by law to register it like (not as) a pistol because it is an SBR. Also, as stated in the earlier thread you can not have an SBR in Mi unless it is a curio and relics classified weapon.

To top all of this off, if it is registered AS a pistol you can not put a stock on it per federal law, the few exceptions, among others, are artillery Lugers with matching number original stocks and 96 Mausers with original stocks.

I am at work now and do not have the state laws available to me right now. I work for the Fed Gov and we have nothing to do with laws laugh.gif
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#4 ThompsonCrazy

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 02:13 PM

I also live in Oakland County MI. Brian is following all of the correct steps. You may not have a rifle with less than 16" barrel unless C&R. It needs to be registered as a pistol b/c the OAL is 26". MI law requires that the barrel be 16" but MI also requires a rifle have an OAL of 30". Even though the weapon has a 16" barrel, with the buttstock removed it is 26" which makes it 4" too short to be considered to be a rifle.....thus the need to be registered as a pistol yet still keeping a 16" barrel. A more accurate description is a "registered rifle" due to the OAL.
Hope that makes some sense, TC
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#5 M1Brian

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 02:42 PM

I just got back from registering my 27a1 today and all went smooth. They just wanted make, model, serial number and how many shots the mag held. Luckily in MI if you have a CPL (new term for ccw in MI) you dont have to get a permit before you obtain your hand gun. You just have to take it to the local pd for a safety inspection in a reasonable amount of time after you obtain it and they issue you your green card then. Without a concealed pistols liscense you need a permit before hand and I could have been screwed. The first thing asked was how long I owned the gun for and how long since the modifications were done. Being I have a cpl there were no problems. The officers also thought the gun looked sweet but I made sure I explained the bolt hold open pivot where full auto is stamped on the lower before they saw it and got the wrong idea. I also had a copy of american thunder II with me incase I had to show them the difference in the full auto parts. The way I figure its a lot better to do it the way they interpet the law right or wrong just to have my rear end covered. I would suggest anyone having modifcations done check with your local authorites first just to be safe. It took all of 15 minutes to do it the way they wanted.
Pathfinder, the oakland county gun board is in the county building at square lake rd and telegraph where you go for you concealed pistols liscense. The last number I had for them was (248) 858-0573 hope that helps.

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#6 'zoo

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Posted 30 August 2005 - 06:50 AM

Gotta love Michigan, where in one statement the gov't says there can be no ambiguity in the law, and between two others, they say that a weapon that fits their legal description of a rifle is also a pistol... dry.gif
Oh well, one does their best to live by the law of the land. I'm glad it went smoothly for you Brian. smile.gif

FWIW, A Thompson without the buttstock and compensator is more than 26" in length, and only an inch or two shy of Michigan's 30" requirement to avoid being called a pistol.
Jeremy

Edited by 'zoo, 30 August 2005 - 06:55 AM.

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#7 Sgt

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Posted 30 August 2005 - 08:50 AM

It's really difficult to sort out all the grey areas when even the official are fuzzy on their own laws. I also had concerns with the "auto" engraving, that is now the "bolt hold-open" feature on my Kahr. I decided that it was worth the extra explanation and possible hassle to have that cosmetic in place.
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#8 Grey Crow

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Posted 30 August 2005 - 09:26 AM

I've been questioned a few times about the selective fire switch. A quick demo settled the problem.

I prefer the Full Auto/Semi far above Bolt Hold Open.

I'm still in need of the Lyman ladder site and the frame mod. to lower the profile.
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#9 bolter

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Posted 26 September 2005 - 09:34 PM

So you can't get a new Kahr M1 10.5" in MI, right?

Maybe have a C&R kit made up into a semi? But then the receiver would be considered the "firearm" and therefore a "new" firearm I guess. Sheesh, and I'm a lawyer--this is confusing.

Thanks,

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#10 TSMGguy

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 07:25 AM

It is the functionality of a gun that counts, as above, not the markings.

I'm far from Michigan. I recently took delivery of a replica Russian AK-74-S-N (AK-74, folding Stock, rail installed suitable for Night vison equipment), built on a new Bulgarian parts set. It had to go through my local dealer since it crossed state lines and in the eyes of the law, it's a new firearm.

The builder did a beautiful job of replicating all of the Russian markings, including those for fire control. He added the full auto notch as well, but the internals are the required US made semi-auto parts. A sharp-eyed clerk at my local gun store saw the extra notch and markings (in Cyrillic!) and was pretty sure that he was holding an illegal machine gun. The owner, who is also a class III dealer, calmed him down a bit, and the gun was transferred to me on a yellow form later that day. I'm glad the owner had not taken the day off!

I'm sure that you guys with "auto" markings on your SBRs have to explain those evey time someone else handles the gun!

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#11 Zamm

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 09:52 PM

QUOTE
I'm sure that you guys with "auto" markings on your SBRs have to explain those evey time someone else handles the gun!


Not to rehash my old story, but when that cold 357 Python's barrel was to my temple by my friendly local ATF agent, I was sure as hell glad my Westy said "Semi-Automatic Carbine" on the side...

With that in mind, I opted for PK to stamp "Lock/ Unlock" for my selector.

Although I was tempted to go for one of his suggestions: "Mutt and Jeff" laugh.gif
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#12 bolter

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 10:40 PM

Thx for the note about markings, but I am still wondering about what I can do in MI with a semi Thompson. Can I have a SBR Kahr semi? Or a M1927 permanently without stock if it has the short barrel? Or an parts kit build with an original barrel?

I'm guessing that I am out of luck and would need to stick with the 16" Kahr barrel. Hmm...

Please advise.

Thanks

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#13 M1Brian

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Posted 29 September 2005 - 02:41 PM

You can not own a sbr in MI. It is Illeagle. A MI rifle for civilian ownership has to have a barrell with a minimum length of 16" and to treated as any normal rifle would must have an overall length of at least 30". If the rifle is less then 30" but greater then 26" it must be registered on a green card. All other bets are off dont get caught with anything else. The only exceptions I know of are curio and relic with proper paper work and local leo sign off. Hope that helps

M1Brian

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#14 SecondAmend

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Posted 29 September 2005 - 05:45 PM

+1
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#15 bolter

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Posted 01 October 2005 - 02:06 AM

Thanks, a gun shop owner in MI did tell me SBRs were illegal, and the state law seemed to say the same thing, but with the web of laws out there you never know.

Regards,

Bolter
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#16 'zoo

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 04:19 PM

Short barreled rifles on the C+R list may be owned legally in Michigan by a C+R holder.
The C+R list is open to additions. A specific weapon (not type, just the one individual) may be added to the list at the BATF's discretion.
I've heard of people in MI doing the following, but haven't tried it myself...

That long barreled rifle, after it is added to the C+R list, may be converted to the short barrel configuration with BATF approval. It is then, instantly, a C+R short barreled rifle, and legal to own in Michigan by a C+R Holder.
(The thing that concerns me is that the state does prohibit the manufacture of all short barreled rifles in its borders, but fails to define "manufacture". But I could be overly cynical about the whole thing anyway...) dry.gif
A friend of mine also lives in Oakland County. He has gone the C+R short barrel route, then registered the weapon as a pistol after finding out about the 30" quirk. He had no problems at all during the process.
Food for thought.
Jeremy
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