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$16k West Hurley's?


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#1 Emmagee

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 01:07 AM

I noticed a couple of $16K+ West Hurley '28's listed on a couple of boards.....are WH's really trading in this price range or is at as I suspect, some wishful thinking on the part of the sellers? Never mind the fact that one of the sellers may be one of the most annoying posters of any of the gun boards (perpetual ass kissing) and I can't believe anyone would buy from him on general principals, but this sure seems like some CRAZY prices. But what the hell do I know! Is a anyone aware of a WH actually trading in this $$$ range?
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#2 DC Chris

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 01:30 AM

I think we all know who you are alluding to.

Truth be told, a WW2 M1 can be had for a few dollars more - worth it in my opinion. I don't think a 16K NIB WH is fair, but neither is $3.29 per gallon of gas.

Some people are in it for the fun and sport of it (me included). Others are in it for a buck (or three). I suppose its not up to me to lay judgement on anyone, but a NIB (untuned and probably needs help 1928) with a 39 round "drum" or a 30 shot stick just doesn't equal 16K. You could probably get a pretty sweet MP5 or about 8 MAC-10's for that scratch.

But, someone will probably overpay and make my hobby just that more expensive. Such is life with a high demand and fixed supply market. Oh well.

Chris.
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#3 John Jr

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 08:14 AM

I know of a westie that sold for 14K recently and I thougth that was high, but the sale did occur. I hadn't noticed anyone asking 16K for them lately, who is the culprit?

Jr
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#4 dalbert

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 09:29 AM

There are 2 of them available in that price range. See the links below.

http://www.sturmgewe....cgi?read=63957

http://www.sturmgewe....cgi?read=63939

David Albert
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#5 philasteen

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 10:01 AM

Bowers reportedly couldn't sell his USGI at 17K, so I doubt the WHs are selling at 16K.
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#6 Roland, Headless Thompson Gunner

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 10:24 AM

I recently made a deal on a Savage M1 (not a rewat) for 14.5k. It was on the boards for quite awhile. Its not a 28 but it is also not a WH. 16k may be the asking price but should not be the selling price. NIB may hold some premium for some folks but if your a shooter the conventional wisdom is that an NIB WH is a liability.
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#7 full auto 45

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 01:10 PM

My Westy was NIB in cosmoline when I bought it. I thought the guy was going to shit when I told him I was going out to shoot it the next day. He just couldn't believe I was going to do that! I told him why own it if you can't play with it! Hell, that's what it's made for.
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#8 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 02:06 PM

Aside from the greater market possibilities for a C & R WH M1/M1A1, how would a NIB WH anything increase the value? Surely a WH that has been massaged with WII parts, even fired to within an inch of its life, is worth more than a virgin WH. Since there isn't any historical significance to the WH, what would a $17K figure be based on? There are WWII TSMG's still available for under $20K so what is the incentive in a few thousand dollar savings for a replica?

The WH prices seem to be less about the general NFA inflation, but due more to their erroneous association with the Auto-Ordnance Corporation of the Colt, Savage/AO TSMG's. These above $15K asking prices for WH TSMG's seem conspicuous by their absence of being sold.

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#9 Shane

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 04:42 PM

About 2 months ago I sold my W.H. 28 for $12,000.00. The gun had been reblued with all G.I. parts in it. I think it was a fair deal. I am also doing the transfer on Bowers M1 Rewat to a guy here in Louisiana, he paid $15,500.00.

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#10 Asmodeus

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Posted 12 September 2005 - 06:13 AM

I've seen WH guns priced at $14.5-$15.5 go in a single day at a few big gunshows ( I was sharing a few tables with my C3 dealer). People walk around with money to spend at these bigger shows and see most of the dealers with any kind of Thompson start their prices at ~ $18k. They come to this guy's table, a reputable dealer with a good history, see a Thompson for $14-$15K or maybe a little more with a bunch of accessories, and they jump on the deal.

They are looking for a Thompson; they don't care whether it's a WH gun or an original Colt. They probably don't know the difference. When I bought my WH gun from Dennis Todd, he was willing to let me have Bridgeport gun, with a cracked receiver, for only $4k more (and I have bought guns from him in the past). Any surprise I bought the WH? I wanted a gun to shoot.
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#11 21 smoker

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Posted 16 September 2005 - 07:06 AM

Well,..you can mark the 16.2k Westy...Sold!....and very close to the posted price too....supply and demand,right before your eyes... wink.gif
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#12 TNKen

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Posted 16 September 2005 - 07:32 AM

Where does that put AO and Savage '28's in the big scheme of things?

Looks like the Westies are moving up faster than the '28's, and the 21's have stifled in the 30k range.

What next, a $30k Westie? And if it is a PK rework, add $5k?

And don't forget the $10k shot mags and pouch.

Where will the madness end?

Ken
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#13 dalbert

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Posted 16 September 2005 - 07:43 AM

I just heard from the seller of the $16,200 WH 28 and the $14K WH M1 that they both sold yesterday for "very close to asking price".

O.K., here's my opinion on the West Hurley prices: I think they are fair. Yes, I said it. I think they are selling for what they are currently worth.

I know this is controversial to some, but my reasoning is as follows:

Whether some like it or not, a West Hurley Thompson SMG is a Thompson. I'm not comparing them to the craftsmanship or history of Colt guns, or the military background of WWII era 1928A1's and M1/M1A1's. WH's are from a different lineage, but they are TSMG's.

Most people who own Colts, rarely, if ever, shoot them. They're scared something will break, or that the finish might be reduced from 80% to 75%. Some own them more for the history than the thrill of shooting them. I respect and understand this.

Most who own WWII era Thompsons will shoot them, but still experience some apprehension. They have great military history, and are currently worth more than the WH's, and will probably continue to remain slightly above WH values.

West Hurley TSMG's are the rarest of all Thompsons. (OH MY GOSH!, WHAT DID HE SAY?!!) Again, West Hurley TSMG's are the rarest of all Thompsons. That's not to say they are the most desirable, or have any significant historical attraction, but they are, as a matter of fact, the rarest TSMG's available on the NFA market. That being said, I don't believe they are being purchased for their rarity. WH's are the Thompsons that get the most use at the range.

- Most who want to own a Thompson wish to shoot it.
- Most who want to own a Thompson cannot afford a Colt.
- Most who want to own a Thompson don't see much more attraction to a WWII era gun than they will to a West Hurley.
- Some who want to own a Thompson live in C&R only states, and the WH M1 fills that niche.

Therefore, West Hurley prices are converging on the lower end of WWII era Thompson prices. Demand is high. There are a limited number of transferable Thompsons of all types on the market.

So, I say it again…the prices being paid currently for West Hurley TSMG's are fair.

David Albert
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P.S.: If you want some really wild speculation on my part, I think West Hurley semi-automatic prices will increase at a good rate over the next several years. They are not being made anymore, and there are only around 35,000 of them available. Yes, Kahr is making Thompsons, and I think they will do good business, but the WH semi's will, in my opinion, start to take on more of a collector's appeal.


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#14 Roland, Headless Thompson Gunner

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Posted 16 September 2005 - 09:46 AM

Dave, You make some very good points. And of course a fair price is one where the buyer and seller walk away happy and the buyer gets what he expects. I can only cite my own recent anecdotal data. I purchased two Savage M1's in the last year ( I can't believe I'm saying that ) for an average price of 14.750. I picked up a WH 28 last year for 10K. I found two of those guns by searching the boards for old posts and asking if they were still available. In both cases they said there had been a lot of interest but no cash. I recently talked to a guy about a nice WH 28 for 14K that had been out there quite awhile, may still be. With the way prices have been going I had pretty much given up on the idea of having a WW2 gun, let alone a Colt. And a Savage 28 is now only a dream ( I think I've shot my wad anyway ). But I think some folks jump a little too fast on those higher prices. Make em an offer, be patient. They aren't making any more Thompson but people will be selling them.
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#15 21 smoker

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Posted 17 September 2005 - 06:53 AM

It`s been said before,...as far as transferables go, 90% of the equity is in the `Stamp`...and the accessories are riding the coattails of them... dry.gif
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#16 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 17 September 2005 - 08:59 PM

QUOTE
Again, West Hurley TSMG's are the rarest of all Thompsons. That's not to say they are the most desirable, or have any significant historical attraction, but they are, as a matter of fact, the rarest TSMG's available on the NFA market. That being said, I don't believe they are being purchased for their rarity. WH's are the Thompsons that get the most use at the range.

So, I say it again…the prices being paid currently for West Hurley TSMG's are fair.

P.S.: If you want some really wild speculation on my part, I think West Hurley semi-automatic prices will increase at a good rate over the next several years. They are not being made anymore, and there are only around 35,000 of them available. Yes, Kahr is making Thompsons, and I think they will do good business, but the WH semi's will, in my opinion, start to take on more of a collector's appeal.
David Albert

Dave,
Whoa! There are only maybe 1800 of the original 15,000 Colt TSMG's in the ATF registry. There were 2972 WH 1928's, 609 M1's, and 247 commemoratives, and of course the LEO only 141 1928's. That makes 3828 WH TSMG's, although mostly not C&R, that were produced and registered and made available to the public. How many of those were sold outside of the country is debatable. But I think it is safe to say that the number wasn't 2000. In comparison to Colt TSMG's, they really are not that rare.

But as to the C&R appeal and how that affects price, consider a S&W M-76 sells for $6000(?), while the non C&R MKA 760 sells for $4000(?). Now as to the production numbers qualifying an NFA firearm as rare and, therefore, possibly more valuable, consider there are fewer MKA 760's, about 1028 total, than the 6100 S&W M-76's.

The proximity of WH TSMG's prices to WWII TSMG's does seem an anomaly since they do not share a whole lot up close other than the name. Yet the S&W and MKA are virtually indistinguishable from the other. Of course the time frames in which they were manufactured are much closer to one another than the WWII and WH TSMG's. The S&M (1968-74) being only 9 years apart from the MKA (1983-86), while the latter had a 30 year lapse.

So it would seem that the "Thompson" brand name carries a significant amount of cache when apportioning value to a .45 smg even in the replica sense.

Any price is fair if both seller and buyer agree. However, the question remains if the price paid by the buyer proves to be a gnomic decision should any NFA laws change.

Have WH M1's and 1928 sold for as much as $17K? Perhaps. Have Colt TSMG's (not even considering the historical or Midas examples) sold for over $40K? Sure. Did it take 80 years for the Colt TSMG to achieve this phenomenal figure along with some other NFA pieces? You betcha.
Has the WH cashed in on this NFA fever in only a couple of years? Yes. Is that perhaps a better arbiter on the stability of that item's value considering such a meteoric rise in such a short period? That may depend on the level of awareness on the part of the perspective buyers.

As far as WH semi's appreciating, I think that is wishful thinking on your part to increase the value of the West Hurley catalogs you collect. The distance of time won't add any luster to the WH semi (it sure hasn't materialized yet 30 years after production), and with Kahr back in the picture, and, apparently attempting to make some actual inroads in quality, the WH semi will only recede into the dim shadows of the past as an awkward looking and mostly unreliable replica that survived because it was the only game in town at the time.

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#17 dalbert

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Posted 17 September 2005 - 11:46 PM

Arthur,

The number of Colt Thompsons in the NFA registry is subject to debate. I have heard the number expressed as high as 2.5x the 1800 figure you estimate. The number of West Hurleys in the NFA Registry is also subject to debate. As you stated, some were sold overseas in unknown numbers. When it comes down to it, we know the original production numbers of each, and we don't know exactly how many remain. Using your numbers, there were almost 4x the number of Colt Thompsons produced as all WH Full Autos. Again, I will say that I don't think WH's are being purchased for their rarity, but rather the fact that they are a Thompson Submachine Gun. I will say again that WH's are the rarest of all TSMG's. If I need to qualify that by stating it in terms of original production numbers, then that is fine with me.

I found your comparison to the S&W Model 76 interesting. I have some knowledge of this weapon. Just for fun, I'm including a picture from an original 1967 manual for the S&W Model 76, inscribed to me by the weapon's designer, who is pictured shooting one of the original guns that were produced prior to the adoption of the barrel shroud. It was named the Model 76 as a play on the year it completed design (1967), but the last 2 numbers were switched to make it seem more futuristic, and to convey a greater possible product marketing longevity.

user posted image

I don't think the mystique of the SW 76 compares in any way to the Thompson, but it does have some. It was used by elite U.S. forces in Vietnam, and developed a good reputation. The MK 760, although rarer, does not have any mystique at all, in my opinion. It is purely a shooter. That being said, I will speculate that during the next year, we will see a pronounced jump in the prices of SW 76's because of a book that will be published on the subject. They are probably a good buy at $6500 right now. The MK 760's will share some of the publicity, and maybe they will increase in demand, as well. These are only my opinions.

I know how you feel about West Hurley Thompsons. The fact that you refer to the weapons as "replicas" clearly conveys your contempt for them. My WH M1 works great. I paid $1200 for it 17 years ago. I bought it because it was the only Thompson I could afford at the time. Except for the blueing, it looks and shoots just like a WWII M1, but that's not the reason I bought it. The parts interchange. I like the blueing. Numrich did a good job on mine, and others I have seen and used. It's a TSMG.

On the subject of West Hurley catalogs, I do have an interest in them, as I do all Thompson paper items. I'm a historian, collector, and shooter. I can learn much about the history of a weapon from its associated paper items.

I still think WH Semi's will see a good level of appreciation during the next few years. Again, this is my opinion. We obviously disagree on this point.

David Albert
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#18 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 18 September 2005 - 02:03 AM

QUOTE
I know how you feel about West Hurley Thompsons. The fact that you refer to the weapons as "replicas" clearly conveys your contempt for them.
Dalbert

If the word "replica" has an inherent resonance of contempt about it then Roger Cox, Gordon Herigstadt and Doug Richardson all play the same note. Frankly, I don't denote the word as a pejorative. Perhaps "fake," "forgery," and "counterfeit" carry substantially more weight in the pejorative. I do not use those adjectives since I do not indict Numrich as a deliberate propagator of subterfuge. Although the charade has carried on for 30 years now.

You have heard of Colt TSMG's in the ATF registry 2.5 times the 1800 figure? If we subtract the number of foreign sales alone, which are fairly well documented for the 15,000 Colt's, the FBI sales, those illegitimately smuggled out the country, and those that have succumbed to inhospitable treatment, that would mean your figure of 4500 seems numinous even by Merlin's standards.

As far as the S&W M-76 not having the "mystique" of a TSMG is quite true. But the MKA-760 shares multiple times more with the S&W M-76 than the WH smg does with a Thompson. One might extrapolate from that the MKA-760 does therefore possess more "mystique" than a WH.

I understand you go out on a limb with your prediction that 1927A1's will shoot up in value. But the lack of fruit bearing on this 30 year-old tree seems to have already sawed through your perch.

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#19 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 20 September 2005 - 04:39 PM

QUOTE
your assumed authority over everone else on the board.
Hardrede

Ah, that job has already been taken..........
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#20 John Jr

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Posted 20 September 2005 - 04:50 PM

QUOTE (hardrede @ Sep 18 2005, 08:11 AM)
Just say it.
Hi I am artie. I hate West Hurleys. I hate USGI Thompsons. Mine is bigger and better than yours. Pthhhhhhhhhh.


laugh.gif laugh.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
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