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#21 October1971

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Posted 15 September 2005 - 09:43 PM

Roger Cox told me years ago that he didn't generally use a % evaluation on Colt TSMGs precisely because of the difference in actual wear vs abuse vs peculiarities with the Colt TSMG. I have handled and sold many Colts over the years and certainly don't profess to be an expert on them. But I've come to a few conclusions which seem to make since involving this nostalgic gun:

1. I've seen what would otherwise be 98% original Colts except for severe scratches around the pivot plate on right side of lower receiver.
(Most are probably attributable to PD armorers who didn't have a clue how to spread the springs in order to remove pivot plate. Hence the
screwdriver gouges around pivot plate spring.) I generally discount about 10% to 20% on value if an otherwise pristine gun has these
awful gouges.

2. I also believe that a lot of otherwise pristine Colts, that were only test fired by a PD, seem to have a lot of blue gone on the compensator and
on rear pistol grip. Answer: I can visualize a rookie cop in the police armory asking the armorer: "Can I hold that gun?" The two most
common possible "sweaty hands" scenarios would be someone holding the gun in horizontal "gangster stance (with sweaty hand wrapped
around rear pistol grip, hence the missing blue on the lower frame. The other scenario is two cops sitting around Bull S..... with each other
holding the palm of there hand around the muzzle compensator while TSMG is resting on floor on butt plate. Hence, the almost no blue
around the compensator because the sweaty hand(s) held it so often. Even though gun hardly ever fired.

3. I've seen the largest discrepency, even from long time gun dealersm in describing Colt TSMG condition vs most other conventional firearms.
Forget the reblueing and forgery for a moment. Just the failure to accurately describe the bad and good points on a Colt can be very misleading.

I try to use a combination of:
1. the normal definition of % of overall blue
2. Then describe the pivot plate area, the wear on rear grip frame, the compensator muzzle area, the wear under the actuator (indicates fairly accurately how much gun has been fired) and condition of bore, and finally the wood.

Hope this helps a little FWIW.


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#22 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 15 September 2005 - 09:49 PM

QUOTE
1921A SN 1852 which is front, and back of the Roger Cox book
Hyper


#1852 is actually "inside" the cover of Cox's book while #5290 is on the cover. But the fact that it has excellent documentation and featured in Cox's book certainly adds a lot of cache. However, even looking at the black and white photos in Cox's book, it doesn't appear to be in any better condition than numerous other existing examples of Colt TSMG's.
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#23 Hyper Sniper

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Posted 15 September 2005 - 09:50 PM

TD,

The gun I am speaking of is serial number 7011 the 1852 was also owned by the man my gun came from, and from what I understand was sold to buy this gun because it was in alot better shape. 1852 is no where near the condition of this gun.

Arthur,
as far as grading on the same page I couldn't agree more, but unfortunatly I guess I am grading on there scale when you see one. I am saying if someone says there TSMG is in 90% condition my gun is in far better shape, so maybe I am a product of conditioning. cool.gif

D
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#24 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 15 September 2005 - 10:05 PM

October,

Yes. Colt TSMG's have traditionally been advertised, before the existence of the Internet and on-line pics, with the amount of bluing wear to pivot, behind grip, actuator wear on top of receiver, and Cutts or muzzle wear. The wood was usually ignored. But as far as the abuse to the pivot plate leaving behind tell tale scratches, I have found that to be less apparent on Colt TSMG's than buttstock screw scratches to the bottom of the frame.

Hyper,

I didn't think you were talking about #1852 as the gun in question but rather #7011. Even Cox never accounted for #7011 when it left Auto-Ordnance. Perhaps GH can now add another MIA Colt TSMG to his register as an Ohio PD specimen in unusually preserved condition.

J.J.
How many XX and XXX round mags can you buy for your Colt made Mattel Toy for $100?

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#25 Hyper Sniper

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Posted 15 September 2005 - 10:13 PM

Arthur,
It is on page 7 of Roger Cox's 1986 supplement to the Thompson Submachine Gun By Roger Cox and is fully documented in the last edition of GH's book.
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#26 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 15 September 2005 - 10:31 PM

Hyper,
Yeah. I see it in the 1986 supplement and in GH's book. But as is the case for those of us with pre 4th Editions, the up dates GH sends us are really after thoughts. I assume he makes mention of the condition in the 4th Edition? As I have said before, GH can't really expect us to spend another $250 for an entire 4th Edition and use the previous ones for a veal press.

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#27 colt21a

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Posted 16 September 2005 - 12:17 AM

i thought number #5290 is the cover gun on roger's book???you must mean the inside black and white page's...and yes i've seen every thompson out there!! wink!

nassua county sheriff's police, navy model> #3283 was in 98% plus cond....it sat in a glass case for over fifty year's...

however #894 and #96 #98 and #103 had the most rumrunner,gangland wear on them!! rich in history tho!!

since the previous owner's knew what they wanted a gun that roared!!this post brought me back to my old serial number list....
sad that i never made a refinished restored list over the last 33 year's of looking...

just made some note's on some of them....thanks for the memorie's take care,ron

snipett..........i have gazed at over 800 thompson's and personally owned 125........not many by anyone's measure..but at least i can make a fair assessment,when i say "best one i've seen"not like some dealer /collector's who have owned two or three and seen around 25 -50 top's.........and even for some that is pushing it....

do the homework...and in alot of year's you become a "might know some of it all" or a coveted R.K.I. wink!!

have fun and never forget the humor.thats what keep's us sane!!
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