Nice 28 On Sturm But....
Posted 24 September 2005 - 03:53 PM
Seller states - "I have in stock an original C&R 1928A1 Auto-Ordnance Thompson. This is a late WWII production 28, features "plain" barrel, fixed Lyman rear sight, and Cutts comp. This weapon is currently on the same form 5 from a small sheriff department since 1945.'"
Saw this post. Sounds like a very nice gun and then I got to the FORM 5 part. Can this gun even be transferred intact? Unless I'm wrong (and I hope so)
unless he transfers it to a museum, won't the receiver have to be cut? It just makes me sick to think about it, but hasn't this just become a parts gun. I really hope this isn't the case.
Posted 24 September 2005 - 04:36 PM
Posted 24 September 2005 - 08:59 PM
Posted 24 September 2005 - 11:09 PM
Posted 25 September 2005 - 09:02 AM
28' production ended in Oct. 1942.
This guys says he has the original form 5 from 1945 and would fax a copy to interested parties. It would be an interesting document. If anyone here gets a copy, I'd like to see it posted.
Posted 25 September 2005 - 11:20 AM
|QUOTE (Roland @ Headless Thompson Gunner,Sep 24 2005, 11:09 PM)|
|According to AT II the smooth barrels started at about SN 85,000. This one looks like SN 134x94 or there abouts. Is that considered late production? I didn't find how many AO made. The foregrip is out of character.|
Auto Ordnance didn't start making the 1928A1 Model until about a year or so after Savage was producing the gun. AO's numbers for the 1928A1 are much lower than Savages', so by 1942 all the guns were starting to show the late features, smooth barrel, fixed sight, etc. Since 1928 production stopped in 1942 that gun would be considered late 1928A1 production.
Many police agencies purchased these guns from the Government after WWII in that same configuration, U.S. ground off, C stamped over the 1, etc. The foregrip may be out of character, but that is a genuine Colt era horizontal foregrip on that gun. Somewhere along the way the police department probably swapped out the front grip. Maybe they also had a Colt gun at one time.
Posted 25 September 2005 - 02:56 PM
I have a copy of an IRS transfer form dated 1944 from AO to a Mass. PD. Most of these AO guns have the smooth barrel/L sight configuration, some have U.S. proofs, most do not. I have seen a lot of them with vertical grips. One can only guess as to the "rest of the story".
Only a theory based on available information...
Since few have US proofs this would indicate that they were never purchased by the Gov't. Perhaps the receivers were built up with surplus parts which by 1944 would be smooth barrels/L sights, for police sales? The verticle foregrips would have been added to give the guns the commercial look rather than the military appearence. Also most have the cross bolt stocks. All 1928 Models left the factory with "no-bolt" stocks. The x-bolt mod didn't come out until the M1A1 was in production.
Only a theory based on available information...
Posted 25 September 2005 - 05:35 PM
|It was purchased from the U.S. government and sat in their gun safe ever since. The sheriff said that it has been shot "a couple of times" in the last 20 years. There is no wear present on the edges of the receiver that you would normally expect from a "used" Thompson. Slight wear marks where the charging handle moves across the top of the receiver. No wear on the butt plate or the sling swivels. No marks on the feed ramp, indicating little use. No marks on the selector switch or trigger. Wood is in excellent condition|
From the ad it is implied that this TSMG never left Auto Ordnance from date of manufacture February/March of 1942, never saw military service or civilian service, until 1945 when it was sold to this PD..... Naturally, wood "swapage" from the PD's other TSMG's could account for the cross-bolt stock, yet it appears the Lyman rivets are in the white. The ad doesn't state that the receiver and frame numbers match since that would be superfluous for a TSMG that was held back by AO for military or civilian duty until 1945.
Maybe the pivot wear was due to the number of mags/drums that were shot prior to 1985 since, "the sheriff said it has been shot "a couple of times" in the last 20 years."
Maybe it was prior to 1985 when this TSMG saw a refinish as well?
Posted 25 September 2005 - 07:22 PM
|QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Sep 25 2005, 07:33 PM)|
|Can some of you guys with these guns again confirm the frame/receiver number matches on yours?|
My frame/receiver numbers match.
It sure would be nice to have a definitive answer as to what the history is on this varient but I suspect we may never really know for sure.
Posted 25 September 2005 - 08:36 PM
Posted 25 September 2005 - 08:38 PM
Posted 25 September 2005 - 09:36 PM
Personally, thought the NAC would move quickly at that price, but apparently hasn't.
And, I don't think I would sell the Mobile PD '28 for 22.5k.
Edited by TNKen, 25 September 2005 - 09:36 PM.
Posted 26 September 2005 - 11:26 AM
Add my name to the list that have matching 28AC numbers. It has the Cutts, smooth barrel , Lyman L sight and no acceptance marks. It had horizontal foregrip and a cross-bolt stock and came from PD in North Carolina.
Posted 26 September 2005 - 01:24 PM
BTW, mine is matching numbers as well.
Posted 26 September 2005 - 04:25 PM
Posted 26 September 2005 - 07:22 PM
Posted 27 September 2005 - 07:04 PM
Savage, "Model of 1928" (not US, not A1, and those markings were never there.) 136,000 range.
Cutts, finned barrel, vertical grip, no US markings, Lyman adjustable, no X-bolt, matching numbers.
Bought from a local PD.
(Does this answer any questions, or merely raise others?)
Posted 28 September 2005 - 12:09 PM
|QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Sep 28 2005, 10:18 AM)|
That's quite interesting. It does raise questions. Since it's a Savage military production era gun, but without military acceptance markings, and with an established PD PeDigree (are we onto something here? ), it might have been pulled from the wartime line for sale to a PD also. It looks to me like a lot of circumstantial evidence is accumulating, to support this hypothesis. And your gun also has the matching numbers.
Joel is describing an early Savage made gun that were the first production models after Maguire contracted with Savage to put the gun back into production in 1939. Many police agencies purchased these guns when the supply of Colt guns was exhausted. Sometimes they are referred to a Savage Commercials and the earliest ones were built with some leftover Colt parts. Seeing that the serial number range is 136,000, that is rather high to still have any commercial parts and fits the range of Savage made Model of 1928 guns that were purchased by England and frequently have British proof marks. It is simply an early Savage gun that was made before all production was switched to the 1928A1 Model for military procurement.
It isn't unusual that a police agency that purchased a Thompson around 1940 would end up with a Model of 1928. It also could have been reimported after WWII and sold to a police agency. The owner of the gun apparently isn't that well versed on all the original Thompson variations since he didn't make the distinction between his early gun and the late model Auto-Ordnance guns that were sold in great numbers to law enforcement agencies post WWII. His gun may have some British proof marks that he is unaware of or the gun could have been modified after reimportation. Of course, the police agency he purchased it from may have ordered it from Auto-Ordnance prior to WWII. The only way to tell for sure would be if the original paperwork exists or through a freedom of information request.
By the way, have you ever done a freedom of information request on your gun? It may go a long way in helping you determine when your gun was registered. Since the military didn't register them during production in WWII, maybe it would finally help you determine when your gun was purchased by the police agency that owned it.
Posted 28 September 2005 - 02:24 PM
I don't know when the PD got the gun, but they kept it until 1986, when I bought it. They sold four of them at that time. I had two of the original four to choose from.
At the time I probably was not looking for such things as British proofs, but the general condition and substantive configuration of each was essentially the same. I chose the one I got because the serial was just a bit lower.
And speaking of serial numbers, at approximately what serial number did the US-marked, Model of 1928A1 guns start being produced?
(I wasn't trying to make any distinctions previously, I was just describing what I have.)