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Ceiner 22 Kit In A M1a1


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#1 2dogsfightin

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 06:45 AM

I was at Knob Creek on Friday..It looked like most of the usual crowd was there.....High MG prices, but reasonable ammo prices. Went by the JAC table. It was where it usually is...but one noteable exception, NO JAC. Some very helpful and friendly gentleman was there (Ceiner couldnt make it for some reason and asked this guy to fill in for him). This guy was very helpful. He completely disassembled his display M1A1 and went over the finer points of the 22 kit. He went out of his way to be nice to me. I had not planned on buying one with out a test run but this guy was very confident I would have no problems....I wish I could remember his name he was from Indiana and keeps ceiner kits in stock. I do have his card but it is not with me at the moment...

ANY WAY.......RANGE REPORT.. The kit installed flawlessly in my Savage M1A1 in about 5 minutes. Squirted a few drops of Rem Oil on the bolt. I used the Remington Golden Bullet (bulk box from Wal Mart) that they recommend. My kids and I ran aprox 300 rounds just about as fast as I could stuff the only magazine we had. We had one stoppage. The round chambered but failed to fire. I dropped the mag recocked the bolt and it fired in the second attempt. stuck the mag back in andwent back to work on the pop cans.....I know 300 rounds is not a valid test but it was getting dark and we had hot dogs to roast....The kids LOVED IT.. I wont let them shoot 45s yet. We have neighbors over the berm.....

So MY OPINION (not that you asked for it) I'm pleased at this point. I know more testing is required but somebody has to do it. So far so good....

Oh yeah, R Lee was there on Friday. Shook his hand and got his autograph. He is one cool dude.....

2Dogs,,, OUT

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#2 hawksnest

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 09:20 AM

2dogs: I have a JAC for my M1A1 and love it. Try squirting a puff of graphite on round 10 and round 20 when loading, for a couple of mags. I think the magazines will load all 30 much easier if you do. Mine runs great. The guy you bought it from was probably Tom Woods, a super guy, who is a member of TCA and also a former president of TAC. Tom told me to run a bore snake thru mine every hundred rounds or so. Enjoy.
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#3 TSMGguy

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 10:15 AM

Does anyone have experience with the JAC kit in a WH M1? The ads used to say that the kits were for the original military guns only. . .
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#4 2dogsfightin

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 12:23 PM

Hawk, Your right! His business card says Walter T. Woods. He was so helpful that I could not say no. I even had to borrow 140.oo off of my buddy to do the deal. Talked me right into it, and I'm glad he did. So far it been a good thing.


TSMGguy, FWIW, I dont know about the West Hurley deal. But Mr.Woods asked me what I had and seemed pleased when I told him my gun was a military M1A1. I guess you could try one and if it didn't work maybe you could add some military internals??? They are plentiful right now and not too pricey.Just my .02 .

2Dogs,,, OUT
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#5 full auto 45

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 04:04 PM

I was there on Friday also. And yes it was Tom Woods running JAC table. JAC was off pretending to be important. Tom is first class all the way. Hell of a nice guy and lives just a few miles from me. I have run a JAC in my WH 1928, but not tried a M1. I may have to buy one of those kits sometime.
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#6 DC Chris

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 06:02 PM

I too am going to give this a try with a WH1928. I am in the process of getting the deluxe kit that fits the 28 as well as the M1 and comes with an extra stick mag. I am in the market for a M1 TSMG as well.

Chris.
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#7 SecondAmend

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 06:20 PM

TSMGuy,

It is my understanding, not personal knowledge, that the WH M1's may have magwell and ramping regions that do not have the dimensional characteristics of the WWII M1/M1A1 Thompsons for which JAC designed his adapter. Thus the JAC adapter may not provide proper fit and feeding.

That is not to say that the JAC kit will not fit a particular WH M1. It may or it may not.

Others may have other opinions or knowledge.

Good luck.
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#8 OldFalGuy

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 12:15 PM

Mike,

ou mentioned you had run a JAC in your WH 28 but what was the outcome? We all know they are not warranted to operate in the WH -I think its because of the possible variety in tolerances in the receivers themselves ergo as somelese stated just replacing WH parts with military parts will not correct the problem. Gotta figure there must be some sort of compatibility problem or JAC wouldn't have the WH's excluded and miss all the business- ITs the main reason I haven't taken the plunge- I wonder what Mr. Woods would say if he was reading this thread.

I was there and obviously missed the table or would have asked him more than a few questions.

Mark
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#9 full auto 45

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 06:38 PM

The WH ran very good with the kit in it. Every now and then it would run away with a few rounds. Seams like when I loaded a clip full, it would run out 4-5 and then be ok. I did have one clip empty with 25 rounds in it. The kit is the one AMAFRANK has. It took just a couple minutes to install. The only tight fit was putting in the barrel sleeve. But one little pop on the table and it was in. It did have the adapter and used the banana clips if I recall. I hope I see Frank Sunday and I'll try to ask. Maybe he'll bring it to the shoot.
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#10 amafrank

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 10:16 AM

Well,
I'm planning on being there but I might have to drag the heavy coat out of storage. I'll bring the conversion unit and maybe the '28 postie too.
Ciener told me the biggest problem with Westies and his conversions are the chambers. He told me that the westie chambers are inconsistant in size with most done to handgun spec and therefore too small for the insert. The feedramp problem is non existant really because the mags are almost in contact with the back of the insert barrel and the rounds never touch the feedramp. I imagine that if the receiver lengths are out of spec though it could cause some problems, it would have to be a big difference in my opinion....

I like the conversion and have fired quite a few rounds through it now. The biggest problem I can see is the aluminum bolt with no hard wear surface for the sear. Most subgunners know that if you don't hold the trigger down tight the sear will drag on the bolt. It happens with all open bolt subbies and will wear hard steel bolts so the aluminum can disappear quick. Phil points this out in his posts too. Many of us are aware of the cause and make sure the trigger is either down or released. New folks don't always know this and are often too excited to pay attention. I think the bolts should have had an insert just for this reason....if and when mine gets worn I'll make up an insert.

Phil also points out that the conversion runs very fast. I thought it was pretty sedate but I shoot a lot of .22 MG's and most run at lightspeed. The thompson conversion is pretty slow compared to a PPS 50 or American 180 and the Norrell 10/22 is a ripper too. I can pull off singles and doubles with the conversion which I can't with the others so I felt it was slow enough. I think this one is a judgement call on the part of the owner.

As for reliability, .22's biggest problem is ammo. If you find the right ammo the thing will be reliable. Speaking with Val Cooper at E&L was a very useful bit of time spent. He works on the American 180's and has done much research on .22 ammo. He says that Winchester wildcat and super x are to be avoided at all costs. The charges are inconsistant and priming is hit or miss. If you fire a downloaded round followed by a hot one you can bulge the barrel. Sometimes they are hot enough to blow the case head off and the next round jams into the remaining piece of the case and fires long before its chambered. Lots of shrapnel.
Remingtons have some loading problems too but mostly they are downloaded.
He recommends the cheap federal from walmart or CCI minimags. I tried the federal and they work well in both the American 180 and the Ciener conversion. They also work well in all the other .22 MG's I have.
Jonathan says the remington is best for the conversion so thats probably a good place to start.....

Post is long enough now sorry for the rambling. See some of you sunday.
Later
Frank


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#11 First Sergeant

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 10:01 AM

I too have been experimenting with various .22lr ammo but in a Mac 10 conversion. I have found Remington Thunderbolt's to be the most consistant in reliability and function. I have run into a problem with severe leading after 100 rds or so. I wonder is this is the reason Tom suggested a bore snake after 100rds? I will try that as well. I'm in the process of trying only plated bullets (copper or brass) and see if that helps. Soon I'll be crossing my fingers on a Ciener conversion in an AC556.

Frank: I plan on being there on Sunday too. I had planned on bringing my M1A1 this time unless your conversion is for the 28 only. If so, I can bring my 28AC instead if you need a non WH to try it in.

Chuck
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#12 amafrank

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 10:16 AM

Hi Chuck,
looking forward to seeing you. I'll bring the whole kit though I was planning on just setting up the M1 at the shop....not a big deal either way. My kit is for both the 28 and the M1 and you are welcome to try it in either your 28 or M1A1( or both ) . Its nice to touch and feel these things as it clarifies what all the posts are talking about.

Phil,
you are dead nuts on about the lack of QC not only in ammo manufacture but pretty much the whole attitude of the country. When I have UPS people yelling at me because they can't deliver a package properly something is wrong. When you call a dealer ( of any type ) to order something, they send the wrong stuff and expect you to pay the shipping to correct it something is really wrong. The worst thing is that they either don't care at all or they think screwing the people that pay their wages is ok....
end of rant. Come shoot with us on sunday and we can do some more ranting, and shooting.

Later
Frank



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