Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Wts: Thompson 28 Wh , Fbi , Drum, Parts,$16.3k Pic


  • Please log in to reply
46 replies to this topic

#21 John Thedford

John Thedford

    RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 31 posts
  • Location:Naples, Florida

Posted 28 October 2005 - 09:43 PM

I am in business to make money. However--business is not "only about the money". People that think or run their business otherwise have lost sight and compassion. As far as NFA---what better business is there? You get to deal with historical firearms, meet many fine people, and sell a product that is unique. I have been a full time dealer for about three years but have had my SOT since 1994. I have a website and post on Sturmgewehr.com. Arthur has been an entertainment for me. I was glad to see the seller that started this thread post that he got his asking price. I posted earlier that I thought he would get his price--and he did. Facts are facts--and the naysayers can post their negative comments 24/7--but they will not affect the market. Hurley guns are indeed worth 15k. Sold one recently for almost 16k NIB--and will be askiing 16k for another NIB 28 inbound. In regards to other dealers asking 17k for similar weapons--they may be priced ahead of the market--but I believe eventually that price may be realized. Time will tell.
  • 0

#22 Arthur Fliegenheimer

Arthur Fliegenheimer

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3456 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 October 2005 - 09:48 PM

QUOTE
Arthur takes great pains to share his opinion of West Hurley Thompson as often as possible. Perhaps, he may even believe what he posts by now.
TD

Now TD, you know as well as I do that Helmer, Cox, Herigstad and Doug Richardson all agree that the West Hurley version of the "Thompson" is a replica. Even Autoweapons.com now refers to the West Hurley as replicas in their internet adds. Why would an NFA dealer, whose prices are legendary, acknowledge the difference between a post 1944 "Thompson" and those that came before? I think it is a refreshing breath of honesty that is not always a hallmark in the NFA world.

I think this board has touched on the supply and demand theory with a frequency and painful obviousness only second to how many clicks does it take to wind an L drum for a 1928 TSMG.

Is the market value of a n NFA weapon set by a private party or a dealer? If RonO and Mike find TSMG's and list the price they paid for them are they the true value of the firearm or are these sales as reported by dealers the true value? One might ask who has the ulterior motive to keep prices artificially higher than what the NFA regs already account for.

John,
Thanks for indulging my babe in the woods perception of the NFA dealer's world. You managed to explain your business practices in a perfunctory and nebulous fashion as one would expect. Do you really get action on those "Will buy your unwanted machine guns for a fraction of their value" adds?

  • 0

#23 TD.

TD.

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2911 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 October 2005 - 10:16 PM

Thanks John - interesting posts. I hate I did not stop by your booth at Knob Creek this fall. I will not make that mistake again.

Arthur,
No, I do not know all of that - but I know how to follow an organization from one place to another. And I certainly do not take my history lessons from Autoweapons.com (I can't believe you said that). Are you going to be at the SAR show this year?

  • 0

#24 October1971

October1971

    Industry Expert

  • Regular Group
  • 283 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 October 2005 - 10:30 PM

It's really been fun watching the sparring back and forth about prices of WH TSMGS. I took out my Class 3 in October 1971.
In 1974 I paid $275 each for (5) Colt TSMGs (with a partner who had gone in with me). We advertised them in SGNews at around $575 and sold (4) of them. I kept one, serial # 444 until Roger Cox pestered me enough to trade me out of it. My partner and I were patting ourselves on the back about what our good fortune at almost doubling our investment in the Colt guns.

Over the last 34 years I have sold a lot of Colt Tommys, quite a few WH's and a goodly numer of military 28s and M1's.
Over those 34 years of dealing in NFA, I've been convinced that everything is "relative." When I was selling Colts for $3000, I was getting $1850 for WH. When Colts started going for $8000, I was getting $4500 for U.S. Mil tsmg and $2800 for WH. You can run down the WH all you want, but there are many collectors who can't afford a Colt, don't want a military (they like the "gangster look" of the drum, blued finish, fins, etc.

Just about every Class 3 dealer got started with the 5-6 basic NFA weapons: M16, MAC10, S&W76, H&R Reising, Sten gun, etc. Then they gradually defined what their interest was and started collecting accordingly.

Just as the "spread" of values between each of the above basic guns remained constant, so it has with Colts, Militarys, and WH.

When I'm sitting on the front porch of the nursing home 20 years from now, reading my gun publications, I'll bet you that if Colt Tommys are selling for $55,000 to $85,000 then Military TSMGs will be selling for $40,000 to $60,000 and WH will be selling for $30,000 to $40,000.

If you think the Colts will be more like $100,000 to $125,000 in 20 years, then just adjust all the others accordingly.

If the 86 ban is ever overturned, then the above figures for WH will not hold valid because someone will be making a WH type tommy gun. But the Colts and Militarys will stay at the high end because there will never be any more of those mfg.

Another way of looking at the WH pricing:

Over the last 34 years of NFA dealing, I've had two types buyers/customers/prospects. One type paid whatever price I set on the guns (if I priced them fairly) the other type: they never bought anything! Why? Because they would tell me: "You want $2000 for a WH tsmg!@!?? They are only worth $1500. Then a year or so later they would contact me and say that whenever I got another WH in for $2000 or $2200 they would buy it. Well by that time, I would have one but it was priced at $3500 and they said: (you guessed it) "No way is worth that much!"

And for the guy who posted saying that you could get a grease gun or M16 for the price of WH, well what if I have absolutely no interest in a grease gun or an M16 but I want a blued, drum-toting, gangster looking gun to display and play with...?

Or..."I don't want a Chevy, I like Fords."

By the way, THERE IS NO WHOLESALE AND RETAIL IN NFA. If the individual collector finds a tommy gun owned by a purchaser of long ago, and he buys it directly for $12,000, that doesn't mean the wholesale is 12m. If I as a "dealer" bought it for $12,000 and resold it for $14,000 to another collector OR DEALER, I don't look at the transaction as a wholesale/retail transaction.

I look at it that if I found it first, I know there is someone who will buy it at more than I paid for it. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but NFA is not like automotive sales where the "dealer" gets it wholesale and the "individual" pays retail.

If the "collector" bypasses me and finds an individual willing to sell an NFA for a low price and the collector buys it, does that mean he became the dealer buying at wholesale? Or did he just get a good buy by being at the right place at the right time?

Looked at another way, does the purchaser of stock on the stock martket buy it at wholesale and sell at retail? Or does he buy it when he believes it is undervalued by the seller and he can resell it for a profit to a buyer who will pay more for it?

But it is really fun to watch an experienced person say no way will that ever bring that price, only to find out that it not only brought that price, it sold quickly and there are others in line waiting to pay that "same unreasonably high price."

When I was in the insurance business and was involved with having clients insure their articles for "market value," the definition we used for market value was: "That price that a willing buyer and a willing seller, at arms length, would pay or ask for a similar article." And I never looked at that as a "retail/wholesale" scenario.

I can't remember if I posted the story about the gun dealer I knew (who has since retired and moved to the Bahamas). I was in his shop when a customer brought a Winchester M12 sporting shotgun in to sell. My dealer friend said he'd give $200 for it. The seller said that the ABC gun shop in the next town said it was worth $400. My dealer friend asked why they didn't buy it. The man said the other gun dealer didn't need one of these right now. So my dealer friend said: "Let me take a closer look at it." He carefully examined the bore, the amount of blue finish, the condition of the wood furniture on it and then said: "I was wrong. I think it's worth $800.... and I don't need it either....."

So while you guys that think a WH is a replica thompson sit there and say "no way they are worth that much" John Thedford and the rest of us will be buying and selling, making some customer happy, making a little money on the transaction, and meeting a lot of interesting people.!!

My 2 c worth.

Bill Douglas


  • 0

#25 John Jr

John Jr

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 1956 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mena, Arkansas, USA
  • Interests:Plenty

Posted 28 October 2005 - 11:37 PM

Good post Bill Douglas. Nice to see you onboard.

John Thedford, don't mind AF, he is a deluxe colt whore of the first order. His sole purpose on this board is to promote colt TSMGs and make fun of everything else. I am amazed that people still listen to his shit. rolleyes.gif

There is no doubt that when measured on dollars paid for TSMGS, (I have done TWO studies on this board an posted the results) the the WH TSMGs sell for less than WW2 and colts. This however does not preclude the fact that all TMSGs are going up in value.

If Hurleys sell for 15 to 16K, then that would place the Savage/AO M1/M1A1 group in the upper teens and low twenties, the Savage/AO 28s in the mid to upper 20's and the colts in the mid to upper 30's. Whats the problem?

Besides AF claims to own a WH Tsmg anyway.


  • 0

#26 John Thedford

John Thedford

    RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 31 posts
  • Location:Naples, Florida

Posted 29 October 2005 - 05:16 AM

Thanks to everyone for their posts. Bill D--I thought about the definition of market value. I intended to post it this morning but you did so first. Some of the statements made by AF in this thread were amusing to me. I wished he had taken me up on my offer for the name of the warehouse where I buy all these guns substantially below wholesale:) BTW Bill--how did the vidoe/pics come out from KC. Sure was a good time there. Bought a genuine for real no kidding absolutely original C&R Lanchester while I was there along with a fake,copyright infringing, replica fraudulent WH Thompson. When it comes in I will have enough respect for my Colt not to store them in the same safe:) It has been fun gentlemen--and I shall stick around! John
  • 0

#27 full auto 45

full auto 45

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 4584 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Looking over your shoulder right now
  • Interests:Thompson's, Any Machinegun, Harley's and scuba diving. In that order.

Posted 29 October 2005 - 08:23 AM

Was at the Indy 1500 yesterday. Friend bought a VERY nice WWII M1 Bridgeport gun,660xxx- I can't recall the last 3, as nice or better then the one I have for those who have seen mine. I looked it over twice before telling him buy it. Asking price was $15k, I didn't get the final price but it was lower. Now I need to find a WH shooter for another friend. No WH guns at the show at all. At least F/A guns. He will be a TCA member very soon.
  • 0

#28 October1971

October1971

    Industry Expert

  • Regular Group
  • 283 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 October 2005 - 08:57 AM

Another "Good ole days" story:

The same partner who went in with me to buy the 5 Colt TSMGs came to me a few months later and said: "Bill, we can buy the last 20 reconditioned MG42's from a major importer. And if we buy all 20, they are only $300 each, or a total of $6000." Well 31 years ago I had just started an independent insurance agency and didn't have much money. I told him, "Mike that's crazy! How are we going to get rid of TWENTY MG42s??!!"

I didn't go into partnership with him on that crazy idea, he borrowed the other $3000 from hic uncle, and...the rest is history!

I'm feeling guilty afte saying how valuable the West Hurleys are and I haven't kept one in my collection. I better run out and buy one to uphold my reputation. I just hate the thought of paying $20,000 for one though. LOL...
  • 0

#29 TD.

TD.

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2911 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 October 2005 - 09:08 AM

Bill,
Interesting posts. I always like to hear from people who have genuine experience in a given area. I am sure others feel the same. My comment about the military Thompsons plummeting in value with a change in the law is based on what I perceive would be the importation of these Thompsons from sources outside the U.S.A. Given the number of Thompson part kits now coming into this country, it appears that a goodly number of WW II type Thompsons still exist and could flood the market in short order if importation was legal. And to me - that would be a good thing!

  • 0

#30 Roland, Headless Thompson Gunner

Roland, Headless Thompson Gunner

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 683 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maryland
  • Interests:Thompsons, Garands, All things WW2, Corsairs, Classic Guitars, Sex, Guns and Rock & Roll

Posted 29 October 2005 - 09:08 AM

QUOTE
If Hurleys sell for 15 to 16K, then that would place the Savage/AO M1/M1A1 group in the upper teens and low twenties,


Totally anecodatal evidence of course but I know of 4 Bridgeport M1's that have sold in the last 6 months (including Mike's friends) for 15k or less. I'm happy to know that my WH 28 has goine up 30% since I took posession in January 05 and the M1 I have pending has goine up 25% in 2 months.

While some guns go SPF in a matter of days, others sit for weeks, months. Irrational exuberance counts for some of these prices.



  • 0

#31 colt21a

colt21a

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3480 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:arizona desert.
  • Interests:Whatever we can do in Life

Posted 29 October 2005 - 12:17 PM

WOW so much info "the mind boggle's" the thing 1951.
wink!

weeee-ow!! bill a ins. agency???

started one in 1973 sold in 1993.......funny huh??

anyhow all good point's to ponder.the thompson wes-hurlee's and other's have come a long way!!

and so have the oldster's around here,it mostly has always been fun...the show's the shoot's, the wheelin and dealin...and of course the history of it all...

i'm sure the general on his death bed when he wrote his final testimony to arm's....and the 1921 thompson did not have as much glee and happiness as the way we talk about them...however different time's..as we look at them{thompson's} in a different manner.kinda like the guy who collect's s.s.memorabilia..........he doe's not care who had it or how much or any meaning behind it...all he know's is he want's it!!

and some people like the wes-hurlee's, colt,and savage and a.o.model's,and the history behind them...
and make a few buck's to boot.

i'm not sure as "phil say's" its all relative.

unless you have a relative who has a cheap colt for sale.wink!

glad bill is on the board and john also...it help's the mix.

met both of the gentleman,and hopefully they can add to the fun of the board...

it's history,and fun....the buck's enter into it later...way later... take care,ron


  • 0

#32 wildwilly2002

wildwilly2002

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 80 posts
  • Location:TUCSON ARIZONA

Posted 30 October 2005 - 11:58 AM

WH Thompson a replica my ass. Wh,colt,or savage are all thompsons.Granted most whs need some work to bring them up to spec but once done they look and shoot great! Really sick of these so called pedagree owners bashing these guns. Payed 6800 for my gun four yrs ago. It has all savage internals and looks brand new. IT shoots great as well! Its market value has risen at about the same rate as the so called "real guns"as far as I can tell. And guess what 99% of the people who have ever seen or shot my gun don't know the differance. Is my uzi a replica because it was put togeather by vector? I think not!
  • 0

#33 Arthur Fliegenheimer

Arthur Fliegenheimer

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3456 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 October 2005 - 01:28 PM

wildwilly2002,

Why does the word "replica," the accurate descriptive word for WH's, offend your sensibilities? The fact that 99% of the people who have seen or shot your WH do not know the difference, while undoubtedly true, does not deter from the well documented fact the WH is a facsimile of a Thompson.

Ignorance may sometimes be advantageous, comforting and uncomplicated, and while it may not be venal, it is always a catalyst for polemics.

Of course Numrich/Trast counted on perspective buyers being oblivious to their charade when they came out with their version in 1975, but the market already pigeonholed the WH long ago as a replica as indicated by the prices they fetch in comparison to pre 1945 bona fide Thompson's. Even the C&R WH's follow this dictum despite the added marketability with the C&R status.

It seems nobody cared about the "replica" or "facsimile" appellation for the WH until several years ago when NFA firearms fever consumed the internet, gun shows, gun boards, what have you.

While you can gut the internals of a WH and replace them with WWII parts that will undoubtedly improve the fit and function of the firearm, it doesn't change the fact that the Numrich/Trast version of the Thompson is what it is.

As far as your "Uzi" being a replica that would depend on whether Vector was licensed to produce the firearm using the Uzi name.

Naturally, when ever this topic comes up the motivations of the heretics like myself are considered snobs, WH basher's, Colt whores, putrid purists protesters, and general nuisances. I'm sure there are many more colorful metaphors that immediately pop into mind aimed at those who merely concur with the research of famed acknowledged Thompson smg authorities.

  • 0

#34 colt21a

colt21a

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3480 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:arizona desert.
  • Interests:Whatever we can do in Life

Posted 30 October 2005 - 02:10 PM

really all this krap on thompson's has started in the last five year's...value's,big buck profit...wanna colt sickness...

really think about it guy's.....$35,000.00 for just wood and metal that sold for $500.00 a mere 35 year's ago.

because of a piece of paper to own,by the gov.

that most of us never shoot...ask the current{not mega rich} current buying owner of one...at that price......$35,00.00>did you take it to the range and plow 5,000 rounds of reload 45acp through it.and let five bud's and gal's finger it,break it down.jam drum's in it..and cock it dry twenty time's to show them the smooth action???

probably not!!

heck some i know who bought a nice colt for $5,000.00 don't..and they told me why, i can get $30,000.00 for this baby, now ron!! are you nut's?? mark it or fire it.
i'd lose money, stupid remark when the paid $5,000.00 for it originally............if they sold it for $10,000.00 they made out..

should now all colt owner's sell for $10,000.00>thats left up to them...however the T.G.factor come's into play human nature!

so they oil it.watch combat or capone,read the manual's.look at the tool's and accs.the thompson sickness..
and wish they had a few more..vicious circle or cycle!

i purchased my first 21a colt for $900.00 and it currently sold for something like $12,000.00 in az..from earl's deceased collection. a 70% shooter beater.> i heard since restored
did i ever wish i kept my first, sure i do...but i needed a 1975 ford pinto to get to work at the time.{ya think a original would sell for that today??}

car and gun now both gone.

life is really too short to argue over this is a thompson a colt or savage.and a wes-hurlee is junk unless you rebuild it...

guess what, once you are dead...who freakin care's...any family will sell it for what they get...your supposed gun buddie's will pick over your stuff like you never existed.and flock like buzzard's over a dead carcass

and give the widow and kid's everything you paid....yeah sure!!sarchasm now!

and if you leave it to the kid's. once a baby or two,or new home,or car or boat come around.pappa's gun's bye-bye..

heck how in the heck do you think we got all this stuff already.....bought it from dead people,zombie's wink!!

and if just if...the gov. decides to step in later...and say no more..

everybody will wish they had some gold, silver,diamond's mo-money.....euro's, greenback's...........

or maybe the trusty .45 colt. to blow their freakin brain's out with..when they say: what the freak did i do...i lost it all.........for what some metal and wood.and now they banned it all.

some say it will never happen.some say watch out.
remember 1968 i do...and 1986,and everything in between..have fun.don't argue...you may not have much time...tick,tick,tick,

and to those who can't let it drop..because they own the best!!

it all can be removed in a instant.we are mortal..

only in the movie's we can live forever.until ted turner decide's not to restore them!wink!! gotcha!

take care,ron
  • 0

#35 ClevelandShooter

ClevelandShooter

    Long Time Member

  • Regular Group
  • 179 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cleveland Ohio
  • Interests:Class 3,Beer, VietNam era small arms, Beer, Harley-Davidson's, Beer, and as Car and driver once said "Torque and Recoil"

Posted 30 October 2005 - 07:06 PM

Arty Flem, You pompas ass. You can't let other guns rise in value as your Colt's do that's all that is happening.
I'll tell you what sell, no, trade me two class3 unfired Thompson's. Never mind the brand . And my 5 are yours. Just want to do some shooting.
Remember with 2 Class 3 unfired Thompson's, you get 3 semi autos all the same serial number . Now [SIZE=7]PUT UP OR SHUT UP. [SIZE=1]Comparing oranges to tangelos will get you nothing. C'mon Arty make me a reasonable offer here on the boards or STFU.
Bill OUT
Hell yea I've had a few LOL
  • 0

#36 ClevelandShooter

ClevelandShooter

    Long Time Member

  • Regular Group
  • 179 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cleveland Ohio
  • Interests:Class 3,Beer, VietNam era small arms, Beer, Harley-Davidson's, Beer, and as Car and driver once said "Torque and Recoil"

Posted 30 October 2005 - 07:11 PM

PS Arty I want blue 28 style with vertical foregrip,ribbed barrel and cutts compensator. Tit for Tat.
That's what i want not some parkerized side cocker I've got an M-11 that does that great.
Bill Out
  • 0

#37 full auto 45

full auto 45

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 4584 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Looking over your shoulder right now
  • Interests:Thompson's, Any Machinegun, Harley's and scuba diving. In that order.

Posted 30 October 2005 - 07:58 PM

Arty..don't you own a West Hurley? If I remember right, you do. Or at least you said you did.
I do.
Hell I would buy a couple more to put in the safe, take out on week-ends and shoot. Hey, it's not worth owning if you can't play with it!
  • 0

#38 Roland, Headless Thompson Gunner

Roland, Headless Thompson Gunner

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 683 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maryland
  • Interests:Thompsons, Garands, All things WW2, Corsairs, Classic Guitars, Sex, Guns and Rock & Roll

Posted 30 October 2005 - 08:46 PM

I'm with you Mike. I'll make a standing offer of 11.5k for any West Hurley in reasonable shape that I can put in my safe and shoot on weekends. Non-consecutive serial numbers are not an issue.

.
  • 0

#39 full auto 45

full auto 45

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 4584 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Looking over your shoulder right now
  • Interests:Thompson's, Any Machinegun, Harley's and scuba diving. In that order.

Posted 30 October 2005 - 08:56 PM

Damn, got me by $1500! laugh.gif
  • 0

#40 Arthur Fliegenheimer

Arthur Fliegenheimer

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3456 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 October 2005 - 09:01 PM

Mike,
Yeah, I have a WH 28. But I knew when I bought it that it was a replica of a Thompson. It seems that word is a huge hang up for some. That the WH has hitched a ride on the current NFA market rocket is secondary to the even more important and relevant factor that is the cache the WH derives from the Thompson name. This distinction might not have been much of a consideration for anyone, other than those interested in the inside baseball of the TSMG, when they sold for under $2K, but at $15K, I think it is subterfuge for dealers to deny this fact, even if they don't go out of their way to advertise it. But as long as buyers are paying the same money for a WH that is also almost equivalent to a WWII TSMG, then I figure, as wildwilly2002 stated in his post, that 99% of these buyers do not know the difference.

It is one thing not to know the difference and it is totally another to not care once they are made aware of the difference. If they know the difference and still don't care and pay $16k, $17K or whatever, then I would not hold any caveats about the surge in WH prices.

Again I am pleasantly surprised to see Autoweapons.com state in their add for a $16.9K WH28 that it is a replica of a TSMG. Now when this eventually sells for this figure, and assuming the buyer is aware of the fact he bought a replica, then the WH would stand on its own merits or demerits.

Of course all NFA items should be primarily esteemed for their intrinsic value as a live ammo firing weapon. Does shooting a WH hurt the value? I don't see how it could since parts are easily replaced and the finish can only be better reproduced.

No matter how you slice it, if you bought a NFA weapon since the 1990's but certainly since the millennium, you paid what most Americans would consider a considerable amount of money. If you feel queasy about shooting it because you have a lot of actual funds tied up in the weapon than that is only normal. But as Ron pointed out, if you have owned the weapon long before the current craze, then what are you out if you continue to shoot it?

ClevelandShooter,
You are already to sell the WH collection? I figured you or John Thedford would have been chomping at the bit to make an offer on Ron's WH.

  • 0