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New Probs At The Range With The 1927a


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#1 shotgun_lobotomy

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Posted 05 November 2005 - 12:46 PM

im haveing a major problem with my kahr, it isnt kicking out the empty shell leaves it to get mashed in the chamber but it usually ends up putting a live shell into the chamber, i think it could be because the springs are so evil it isnt making it back far enough to hit the ejector good, could this be the problem or something else? i wasnt able to fire more than 3 shots without a jam, im useing wolf and i know it should cycle because its not weak stuff imo, i also think that the springs seem to be really heavy for a lil 45acp, my saiga-12 isnt that hard to cock
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#2 Whiskey Brother

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Posted 05 November 2005 - 03:16 PM

The stiff springs are there because it is a straight blowback gun. This means that the only thing keeping the bolt closed when it fires is the weight of the bolt itself, and those stiff springs. Once the bullet leaves the barrel, the recoil or "blowback" then pushes the bolt to the rear. A .45 ACP develops +P velocity in Kahr/West Hurley semi's, so I doubt if it is having any problem kicking the bolt all the way to the rear.

It could be an ejector problem. Not to be confused with the extractor... But a lot of times it is the magazine that causes malfunctions. Check the magazine first, look for bent feed lips or the hole is drilled wrong for the magazine catch. Most of the magazines are WWII surplus, and the hole for the catch usually gets drilled so you can use 'em in 1927 models. (Which is actually a mistake, as you can just modify the magazine catch itself...)

Lastly, it could be that Wolf ammo. Is it steel cased? What did the empties look like?
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#3 shotgun_lobotomy

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Posted 05 November 2005 - 04:02 PM

well i doubt its the mags cause it happens on all 3 of my 30s and the drum, the caseings look good cept for the ones that get mangled in the port, some get close to cut in half from the bolt slamming em forward, i wads thinking the ejector but when i load by hand(pulling the bolt myself) they kick out all the way across the room, thats why im thinking the springs are too strong, happens with my reloads and all dont seem to be the ammo, my dad was with me and we were trying hard but couldnt hear the bolt hit the back of the receiver either, thinking about trying that EZ pull kit

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#4 shotgun_lobotomy

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Posted 05 November 2005 - 04:39 PM

just to add now that im cleaning it the extractor is broken, but i KNOW it wasnt when i was haveing the problems cause i looked to make sure, at some point the bolt must have smashed down on a empty and broke it, prob the last shot that made me give up, so what extractor fits this gun? is it just the same on all of em?
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#5 Bisley45

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Posted 05 November 2005 - 08:07 PM

Could be your chamber is a little tight towards the front. They feed in but don't like to come out, mine didn't want to let go of certian types of ammo and busts extrators if I feed it anything but brass case ammo.

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#6 shotgun_lobotomy

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Posted 05 November 2005 - 09:19 PM

what im going to do is buy a new ejector and a few extractors, i think im also gonna get the EZ kit and see how that goes, if i dont like it i can return it, im gonna try to pick up some boxes of commercial made ammo of diff types and see how that goes, im a avid gun collector and i have all kinds of stuff im used to haveing problems

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#7 Grey Crow

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Posted 05 November 2005 - 11:43 PM

A lot of guys use Wolf in the FA guns but in the Semi's its hard on the extractor. Stay with brass only. I've boken 3 extractors all before 50 rounds were fired. Went back to brass cases and 400 rounds without a hitch.

Factory chambers are a little on the small side. Mill spec chamber will help as well as smoothing the feed ramps.

Mags and the mag catch play a MAJOR role on how well semi's function.

Suggestion swap out the mag catch for a modified one and get a hand full of GI mags.

PK or Damon from this list can fine tune it for you, you'll be glad you did.

Keep an eye on the comp and rear site as they tend to shoot loose.
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#8 Lancer

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Posted 06 November 2005 - 11:44 AM

QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Nov 6 2005, 11:23 AM)
Saw a used one at a gun show yesterday, with the old cheese grater bolt knob, a $30 Chinese carrying case, couple extra mags, and one of the new unworkable "L" drums. The dealer only wanted $1,500. laugh.gif He's had it for many months. More people seem to be taking their smart pills, here in Ohio.

Phil
Was this at the Lima gunshow? If it was I didn't see it. Maybe someone actually paid that price. ohmy.gif
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#9 Whiskey Brother

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Posted 06 November 2005 - 04:26 PM

It's the steel cased ammo, in my opinion... Get into reloading if you want to save money. If you cast your own you'll only pay about a buck a box for high quality ammuntion. (Well... At least as high quality as you make them...) Don't shoot in brush though, as Thompsons kick empties all over the place, making your brass search longer than your shooting session...

I'd be leery of that EZ pull spring kit, myself. If you lesson the spring tension without increasing the weight of the bolt or putting in a Blish lock, (on a semi??? wink.gif ) you will see a few changes in the gun. All you have to do is think, "What will happen if the bolt starts opening quicker?" You might see things like loss of velocity, or cases that have bulges in them from being extracted when pressure is too high, or worse case scenario,- the guy standing behind you and too the right gets his hair singed from gas that is going out the port instead of pushing a bullet down the barrel. (Although you'd have to be pretty stupid to stand there and let empties pelt you in the head, never mind about ignited bullet propellant.)
The heavy springs are there for a reason. -To keep that bolt closed untill the bullet has traveled 16" and pressure has subsided a bit. Some may well say "Pshaw" to all that, and get the lighter springs put in, but I'm betting accuracy goes down as well as battering to the gun with the light springs. It stands to figure, if the bolt is moving backwards when the bullet is going forward, each shot is not exactly the same,-which is what you want in an accurate gun. Plus recoil will intensify a bit, making accurate aimed rapid fire much less accurate, and how are you going to impress the chicks if you can't chase an aluminum can down the range and up the hill in mere moments? biggrin.gif

Do you guys really find the stock springs to heavy? I just grab the bolt handle and yank that sucker back with some authority, and then let it fly forward. Not even a pump action shotgun sounds as intimidating as the KA-CHUNK of a Thompson being cocked....


I expect we will be hearing back from you when your rear sight pops off, because it will. (Another early one is the magazine catch spring coming loose and dumping a half full magazine on the ground.)

And yes, welcome to gunsmithing 101... rolleyes.gif

I also think your chamber might be too tight, as was mentioned. I've fired untold thousands and thousands of my reloads through my gun, and I've never broken either an extractor or an ejector. My firing pin is about due for another replacement, as they tend to get rounded off right at the sear at about 15,000 rounds or so, making the trigger pull even longer and creepier than it already comes with, but other than that everything else is working fine.
(Although my bolt hold open lever is also starting to show the same kind of wear that the firing pin seems to develop, namely ordinary friction wear from the bolt operation... One last tip,- whatever you do, never ever pull the pivot plate with the frame still on the reciever. I heard of cases where people have done that and I have no idea how to help you if you do. I imagine Kahr wouldn't even want to touch it at that point...)
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#10 Grey Crow

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Posted 06 November 2005 - 05:00 PM

I haven't noticed any degradation in accuracy with the ezpull springs, perhaps a little flash at the ejection port. Still holding right on at 50, 100 and 125 yards through a 10" tube.
I would hope that the buffer that comes with the springs absorbs any additional shock of the bolt striking the recoil plate and receiver.

I just started noticing the wear on the firing pin where it contacts the sear.
Keep in mind that this edge is hand fitted.

Gunsmithing 101 and beyond!
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#11 Whiskey Brother

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Posted 07 November 2005 - 01:25 AM

A little flash at the ejection port aint too bad. Maybe a little lost velocity, but if they still shoot to point of aim it can't be that big of a loss. How's the fired cases look? Are you getting any bulged or "pregnant" ones? That's a sure sign of the empty going out before pressure has dropped, but unless you are a handloader it's nothing to be concerned about. (Unless of course it's AMERC brass, which I dislike tremendously and vigorously, and literally shoot to pieces with bullets so I don't accidently reload one because it is such crap! And which might concievably cause a problem... mad.gif )

If you are still hitting things at 125 yards though, I guess it can't be too bad...
I would actually try to maybe make the bolt a little heavier some how, if I was going to use the EZ spring. Maybe a little lead or even depleted uranium to make it heavier... tongue.gif That would counteract the weaker springs tendency to open the bolt while pressure is still high, although the thing is heavy enough as it is, and I don't know how you would go about it offhand...

On firing pins- Yes, this is a hand fitted part, and I prefer to be the one fitting it! If you keep that sear engangment notch at a nice 90 degrees, and polish to a mirror finish, (without removing any metal!) it makes that long creepy stock trigger pull less so. In fact, if you polish all the parts that touch each other in the trigger group, plus remove any burrs, you can get a decent trigger pull out of what initially looks to be a hopeless case.
A point to remember though, is heat treatment. The sear itself shows almost no wear at all in my gun, but the firing pins seem to be a little softer metal, so they wear in that area. If you don't know how to heat treat metal, leave it alone! making the firing pin harder or softer will cause a broken firing pin, plus possible metal shavings if it fractures. Hardened metal hitting hardened metal is not a good thing. It's better to re-shape the firing pin as it wears a little, then just replace it after "X" amount of rounds put thru it.

Remember, guns are like any other tools and machinery, you replace the filters and shocks in your car, so why wouldn't you replace parts in a gun?

Another point of concern is the tip itself. Most of 'em are a rather sloppy fit, which gives a rather distinct appearance to fired brass primers. But they do work with the loose fit, which is one of the things I like about the Thompson. - 400-500 rounds using Unique Powder and you start to appreciate things like that. In other words, even with a bunch of gunk in the action it still goes BANG! when you pull the trigger... (Although I can't say the same for shotgun lobotomys new Kahr, hope he gets all the built in bugs out before he gets frustrated with what becomes a great shooting gun, once you fix it and break it in with a few thousand rounds...)
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Haven't been on this board for awhile, I've been playing with a new SMLE #4 Mk2 and a new S&W model 29-2 for the last 6 months or so, but recently I've run about 400-500 rounds through the old Tommy Gun and it sparked my interest back up! biggrin.gif
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#12 full auto 45

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Posted 07 November 2005 - 10:51 AM

Was that a guy in a wheelchair? If so, he had the same thing couple of Indy shows back. Trying to pan it as a "collectible" WH gun!
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#13 Grey Crow

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Posted 07 November 2005 - 11:42 PM

Whiskey Brother

With the original springs and before the chamber was opened to mil spec, I had close to pierced primers. The primers were also flat and the primer and case showed the machining marks of the bolt face.
Now the only difference is that one side of the case has carbon on it about a third of the way down from the leading edge. No bulges or pregnant cases at all.
It really makes it easy if, and "when" I find my brass, I actually know its mine! I've used Win. White box mostly, some CCI Blazer Reloadable, and a little PCI.

Just ordered 1000 hard cast bullets to load up those old musty cases that have been piling up on the bench for the past year or so.

I need to take the 27 apart anyway to install Doug's new bolt handle so I might as well stone the contact point of the firing pin. After the last range session I noticed what appeared to be burrs on either side of the sear engagement area of the firing pin. Play! That's for sure, even the bolt has significant movement in the receiver. But all in all so long as I stay with brass cases it runs like a well tuned watch, stick mags, or drums it keeps on eating ammo.... smile.gif
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#14 Whiskey Brother

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Posted 08 November 2005 - 11:32 PM

tongue.gif That's an example I should have seen immediatly, but didn't even think of until you mentioned it. With those light springs, the empties must be leaving the ejection port like a bullet itself! You are seeing the results of the bolt opening before pressure has subsided enough. Flame out the port is a 100% indication of that. Since the .45 ACP has way lower pressures than other cartridges, (The new .45 GAP comes to mind.) you are getting away with it. If it were any other cartridge that uses higher pressures this would be an extremly foolhardy thing to do. On the heavy Thompson though, with it's weight and angled ejection port you are probably safe enough with the lighter springs. If you tried that with it chambered for .30 carbine or something along those lines, it would be a recipe for a ruined gun and a trip to the ER room! (Or worse!)

And watch where you aim that port! Those empties won't be hard to find if you are ringing some guys bell with them 25 feet behind you and to the right! (Kinda serious here, the empties could conceivably hurt someone standing close enough to you when they leave the port that fast, and that's another thing to take into consideration for those with the spring kit or wanting to have it installed. )

- On the comic side, I had this vision of some guy with his forehead stamped with a circle within a circle and "CCW 69 " written in it ...
{Hint: Think of it as a mirror image}
Man, I bet that would give you an instant migrain!

[Stamp. Head. - Head stamp. Get it? Sorry, I crack myself up sometimes with my subliminal humor... laugh.gif I should probably get out more... rolleyes.gif ]



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If you dissasemble all the moving parts in the trigger, sear, disconnector area, you will find some visable wearing on the parts after a few thousand rounds put through the gun. It's hard to notice over a long period of time, but after carefuly removing the burrs and polishing all the metal that contacts other metal etc. etc. I noticed a HUGE increase in how pleasent it became to pull the trigger. Because of the way it is set up, (I assume to make it difficult to convert to full auto.) There is a lot of lost movement and bearing surfaces all acting on each other when you are pulling the trigger. I don't know if "lost movement" is the technical term for it, but that's what I call parts in guns or anything else that seem to do more moving than is necessary to perform it's function.

An example is the safety on the Thompsons. The way it's marked, you think that you have to rotate the knob all the way to the rear for safe, and all the way forward for fire. In actuality, the knob really only has to be turned half the distance for it to perform its function,- blocking the sear from moving. Turning the knob a full 180 degrees when only 90 degrees is needed is what I call "lost movement".

(I just kind of think of it like the Mauser 98s were designed. You can put the gun on safe, but leave it right where you need it if you need to take it off safe in a hurry,- the combat safety mode... )

Other examples are all through the frame, and after you examine each part and ask yourself "what does this do?" and "Why did'nt they just make it easier and do it this way"? You find that you are basically teaching yourself Gunsmithing 101 and doing a trigger job in the process...

Besides, for people like me it's fun to both shoot 'em and work on 'em.

I couldn't see myself going full professional though, I don't think you'd find many people willing to pay me $50 bucks an hour, for example, to watch me take weeks to checker a stock by hand untill I am satisfied with it!
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#15 Whiskey Brother

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Posted 09 November 2005 - 06:11 PM

Let me know if I start getting too technical, because I have no formal schooling in these matters and I use a lot of my own terminology. In fact, I've looked into a few of those gunsmithing schools and thought too myself, "I've already done all this many times, why should I pay somebody $800 bucks to do it again?

It's not just Thompsons that will spit, any gun will spit something out, if not from the front, from other areas. The most notorius is the cylinder /barrel gap on a revolver. If you are standing anywhere near a guy shooting a magnum revlover that is out of time, you are going to know it! (I once saw a guy catch a fingernail clipping size chunk of lead right above his eybrow from an out of time revolver, and we had to rush him to the ER. From all the blood you would have thought he was shot from the front instead of about 15 feet to the side, but luckily all he got was a little scar. He came damn close to losing his sight in one eye, and since that experience I ALWAYS wear some sort of eye protection while shooting! Since my hearing is about gone anyway, I consider this even more important than hearing protection.

How the hell you gonna shoot if you lose one or both eyes?

As for sticking dimes in the action on SKS's, that just sounds like one of the many tricks that have developed over the years to get that full auto effect. Sometimes it's a toothpick stuck somewhere, or a dab of super-glue, whatever you can find to make the secondary sear stick, or a little grind off there or "forget" to put the disconnector in. Many times depending on the gun you can get it to slam fire, bump fire, or something else... I have an old Mossberg .22 auto that will bump fire easily if you hold it from the waist, but the thing will jam after 5-6 of the 7 total it holds, and I never come close to what I'm shooting at anyway, so why bother?

A lot of people don't seem to realize that that the trick to a full auto is not some magic part or method to make it fire full auto, it's just a matter of figuring out what makes it a semi instead of a full auto, because if you left it up to the gun it would fire full auto much easier than just one round per pull of the trigger! Gun designers have to figure how to make it fire one shot at a time, not how to make it fire full auto.

In other words, it is a heck of lot easier to make a full auto gun than it is to make an effective and long lasting semi-auto... Just ask the boys who made the STENS or the guys over at the headlight division of General Moters.... wink.gif


That's another thing that could be a loophole though, so I would not encourage "tricks" to make it fire full auto. Even though it is just a toothpick or such, once it goes full auto it's no longer legal without that $200 tax stamp, and knowing ATF, they could present a case against you for "owning the necessary parts to convert" with no more evidence than a gun with a worn part or a toothpick stuck in the secondary sear! Even pillows, which are the most effective suppressor known to mankind, (They even silence revolvers!) would be serial numbered and taxed if the ATF could get away with it... unsure.gif

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#16 Grey Crow

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Posted 09 November 2005 - 10:40 PM

LOL, I hear you on the ejected casings, I inadvertently bombarded a guy a few months ago. He was ok with it, I allowed him to run a few mags through it, and he even helped scavenge casings. I haven't noticed any difference in distance on the empties.

I was thinking about your suggestion of adding weight to the bolt, that might be tricky. But lead could be added in each of the holes on the left and right sides of the bolt.

Now the Mini 14 really hurls them! Thinking about an adjustable gas block.
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#17 shotgun_lobotomy

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Posted 12 November 2005 - 11:14 AM

well i got the new extractor, its not hitting anything up in there that i can tell, gonna run a batch of reloads and give it a try monday when i try out my new wasr i picked up
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#18 Whiskey Brother

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Posted 12 November 2005 - 09:03 PM

What are your loads you are using?

Some good ones are:

200 Grain Lead cast bullet. Lyman ( I believe 452460, but I could be wrong) is the most accurate in my gun, seating the bullets out a tad farther than most people or books would tell you to, but not so far that they don't go in the magazine. The reason for that I will go into another time, but suffice to say that this makes 'em more accurate. A slight taper crimp using a separate die is highly recommended as well. Start with 6 grains of Unique, 6.4 should get them nice and accurate, and do not exceed 7 grains even though the books all say you can push it to 7.5.
Another excellent powder to use is Winchester 231. Starting at around 4.8 grains and not exceeding 5.6 or so. Bullseye also makes an excellent choice, not one of my regulars anymore but more bang for your buck at around 4.5 grains per load. Use Winchester LP Primers.

The 220 Grain Lyman Round Nose is another excellent choice to use, and all's you have to do is use the above data kicked down a half a grain or so.

I prefer to use cast lead bullets in my gun for several reasons.

First, you can never wear out a barrel shooting cast lead bullets.

Second, there is considerably less friction with lubed cast lead bullets than there is with full metal jacket bullets, so you get a higher velocity with the lead bullets.

And third, cast lead bullets cost nothing but the initial cost of the mould and your time. Wheelweights, fishing weights, scuba dive belt weights, old solder, old Dungeons and Dragons figures, and whatever you can scrounge up usually cost me exactly nothing to practically free and make nice bullets.

"But what about barrel leading?" is the first question I hear coming...

Practically non-existant with the proper bullet lube and load in this caliber. In the unlikely event you do get a little leading in the barrel, (because you are going to see it cake in the compensator) just shoot 4 or 5 full metal jackets through and that "de-leads" it pretty good...

I'm hopefull that the bugs will start to work out of your gun, especially the more you shoot it. Most everything that will go wrong is usually within the first few hundred rounds. Mines ran with hardly even a jam for years and years now after the break in period...
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#19 shotgun_lobotomy

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Posted 13 November 2005 - 12:41 PM

i use 230gr berrys plated and 4.4gr of imr 700x
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#20 Whiskey Brother

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Posted 13 November 2005 - 04:55 PM

650 pounds sure would be a welcome addition for me. Heck, 65 pounds would make me happy! I'm down to my last 45 pounds or so of alloy now, and it has become increasingly hard to find any lead at all, let alone tin. The local tire shops seem to have all tightened their budgets or something, because I can't get anything from them anymore, even if I offer to pay for it! I don't know if this a local thing, a California thing, or if bullet casters everywhere are starting to run short...

I do have a scant 4 pounds of Linotype left, that I'm saving for a SMLE #4 Mk2 cast bullet project, but that has become pretty close to impossible to find locally anymore.

Im not sure where this predjudice against using cast lead bullets comes from, because it makes so much more sense to use those over commercially made full metal jackets. A few months ago a freind of a freind went shooting with us, and he thought I was crazy to use "Lead bullets" in my guns! (If using lead bullets in my guns makes me crazy, then the rest of the World has gone insane! tongue.gif ) Told me I was gonna "Catch lead poisoning" for "messin' around with lead" like that.

I blame the public school system and cable TV...
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