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Has Anybody Delt With Craig Jordan


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#21 Motorcar

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 08:17 PM

RHLOWE,

A couple of thoughts that may improve your day on this board....if you have only been lurking for a week on this board then you have missed out on some of AF's more spectacular posts. He is worth the price of admission alone, but nothing to get upset about. Just take deep, calming breaths, and repeat Aurthur...Aurthur.
There are a few Thompson full auto fellas here in Texas and a few more like me that only have a semi right now. T-Man is in Houston and does some great WW2 reenactments with his 28WH up in Fredricksburg at the Museum of the Pacific War. There are several there with Thompsons that travel to do the show.
Take heart, there are some great guys here and a wealth of info, remember deep calming breaths..... wink.gif
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#22 ghostsoldier

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 09:36 PM

Rhlowe,
Welcome to the board! Let me be the first to agree with Motorcar…you just gotta hang in there. I can speak with authority…I’ve been a lurker here for over three years, a member for two, and when I first joined I got my ass reamed pretty severely for some jokingly inappropriate comments I made…I did deserve the corrections, but not the personal attacks that were also part of the responses. I was pissed…I swore I wouldn’t waste my time on this rag forum…but, cooler heads prevailed, and after a PM or two I received from some of the more respectable RKI members explaining to me the nature of some of the other people on this board, I capitulated, grew up a little, and returned…and learned a hell of a lot about Thompsons! I even became a sponsor back then (which I have just repeated again last night), because I appreciate the good guys on this site, and the effort that Nick and Co. put forth in providing this venue. I don’t need to tell you, as an officer of the law (myself a former corrections officer in my state's largest Maximum Security Prison), that the world is made up of 3 types of people… and 2 of those are opinionated assholes (as I’m sure you’ve dealt with a lot of them). This board is no different…it has its share of hardballers (no, this is NOT a personal attack against anyone on this particular thread)…but in the end, it’s the ONLY place on the web that you will find informative data on the venerable TSMG and its variants, presented in such illustrious (and sometimes flamboyant) detail by its owners and RKI’s.
So, bite the bullet, enjoy the ride, and I hope to see you here many years to come!
BTW, good luck with the project…I wished I could afford a Colt, Savage or even a WH rock-and-roller, but until then, I’ll have to make due with my lowly and humble, and I quote, “piece of shit Kahr” M1 SA…but, I can say, it’s a hell of a lot of fun! And it’s still a “Thompson” (now…that’s another thread altogether!)! rolleyes.gif

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#23 LIONHART

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 09:45 PM

QUOTE
more respectable RKI members


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#24 Z3BigDaddy

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Posted 02 December 2005 - 10:28 AM

I'm sorry I still don't know why you think the ATF would care if you changed the markings on a gun, other than the serial number. Are they involved in keeping the lineage of Colt's pure somehow? Should I call to make sure I can change the barrel or go from blue to park? I just don't get the concern you have.... Now I could see the gun companies being pissed off if you represent your cheap gun as being one of their expensive guns and try to sell it as such. The SA revolver is a good example....
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#25 colt21a

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Posted 02 December 2005 - 11:52 AM

remember fella's.once you own it you can do whatever you want with it..blue it park it....add fancy wood ,plastic.option's.engrave stamp,gold tone {midas thompson}and that speak's for them all not just thompson's....heck how many ww2 vet's came back and chromed luger's??here and abroad,and p-38's... or sportered the brit enfield and mauser...and a few johnson's.{the rifle}

once a saw a m-1 carbine...i guy nickled and jeweled the bolt.and carved in the wood name and serial number,i guess he wanted everybody to know it was his!!!

alot of ak-rifle semi workand F.A. is being done right now by a few people,i have first hand knowledge of it.and the marking's and engraving's..some even endorse it as a true factory build or better.

as in all thing's we want the best we can get for the buck's..and to some they want a clone copy.as most are not around anymore,no longer made.or priced sky high...

heck i'm even buying a fg-42 semi clone copy.{brand new manufacture}why???because nobody has a mint cond.all matched original to sell me for $25,000.00 wink!
and if they did with matched scope and mount.they'ed want $75,000.00 winK!

have fun with it all.that is the bottom line...take care,ron

well off to s.a.r.show i will give the report on sunday night.oh! the horror!
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#26 Z3BigDaddy

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Posted 02 December 2005 - 01:00 PM

I'm sorry I forgot "Nobody likes the truth." and you are the truth.... I'll not make that mistake again... rolleyes.gif
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#27 colt21a

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Posted 02 December 2005 - 01:29 PM

t-man is reading this subject maybe he can post it all..{if greg want's to waste his more important time.} he'd have more fun doing the reinacting thing..then posting on this subject i'm sure..

leave the serial number alone,it is there for a reason.so a manufacture know's what he made and how many,and to pay his tax.and so they can trace the bad guy's.when they get used in a wrong manner to trace....kinda simple i guess..from the flat earth society manual page 22 verse 14 chapter 9.wink over and out.

ron
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#28 rhlowe

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Posted 02 December 2005 - 03:03 PM

Ok Guys:

This may be a little long but, When Phil origanally posted his "that is illegal" post which I assume is based on hearsay and emotion. I asked him to cite the USC. Not hard to do. He didn't so I have done it for him here. You'll find the cite at the end of all this.

Phil stated;

"I agree with our members who suggest putting the brakes on this "moving" of manufacturer marks. It's not called "moving". It is "removing". That's illegal. Isn't it simple? I don't think ATF or the Department of Justice would, or should, agree that hiding new markings someplace else makes everything sweetness and roses again. The rules say you don't grind 'em off. They don't say you can grind them off if you then place new ones under the grip bar, in the slot, in characters .035" high or something."

Well, ya know what Phil was kinda right see USC 26 E 53 5861 (g), (h) & (i) which I have thoughtfully cut and paste below. then Phil tells us this;

"I have an original first run Pasadena Automag, where they only etched the factory name and model markings on the receiver with some chemical process. It wears off, and did. So I had an engraver DEEPLY engrave them back on, over the faint remnants of the old ones, and working from a photo. I feel better about that, and it's about as far as I would suggest anybody go, in messing with markings."

Phil If those markings wore off on your clothing while you were carrying the gun then you removed them! I guess the ATF is aware of this problem.

Well, I called the ATF firearms technology branch some years ago and they advised that their ruling was that the serial number must be maintained as it was required to be affixed in a manner which may not be readily removed. there is a ruling which covers this. The ATF also advised that that they had ruled only the serial number fell under this as it is the only identification which must be affixed in a manner which may not be readily removed. See USC 26 B 1 5842 (a) which I have thoughtfully cut and paste below. The ATF rulings are law. An unusual situation as they are the only law enforcement agency in the United States that is capable of making the laws that they enforce. The ATF rulings are published I do not have them in hand but, I'll get them for you if you would like Phil.

Never the less, the law does not prohibit moving the manufacture's marking It does however prohibit changing that marking. Lets see Auto Ordnance Company. Yep that is the maker and will remain the maker. There are some further rulings that also cover the place of manufacture being displayed on the firearm and I intend to comply with those rulings as well, only inside the magwell. Phil you yourself have done with your Automag exactly what I intend to do. Your new markings have moved from their original location weather you realize it or not. They may not have moved to a different surface of the receiver but they moved when they were reapplyed. Does this set you up for a felony indictment? I hardly think so. I understand that firearms law is a highly emotional issue for you. Before you say that is illegal I would recommend you read the statute that governs what ever you are referring to.


TITLE 26--INTERNAL REVENUE CODE

Subtitle E--Alcohol, Tobacco, and Certain Other Excise Taxes

CHAPTER 53--

Subchapter B--General Provisions and Exemptions

PART I--GENERAL PROVISIONS

Sec. 5842. Identification of firearms


(a) Identification of firearms other than destructive devices

Each manufacturer and importer and anyone making a firearm shall
identify each firearm, other than a destructive device, manufactured,
imported, or made by a serial number which may not be readily removed,
obliterated, or altered, the name of the manufacturer, importer, or
maker, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulations
prescribe.




TITLE 26--INTERNAL REVENUE CODE

Subtitle E--Alcohol, Tobacco, and Certain Other Excise Taxes

CHAPTER 53--MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER
FIREARMS

Subchapter C--Prohibited Acts

Sec. 5861. Prohibited acts

It shall be unlawful for any person--

(g) to obliterate, remove, change, or alter the serial number or
other identification of a firearm required by this chapter; or
(h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or
other identification required by this chapter obliterated, removed,
changed, or altered; or
(i) to receive or possess a firearm which is not identified by a
serial number as required by this chapter; or



TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 53 > Subchapter D > § 5871 Prev | Next

§ 5871. Penalties


Release date: 2005-08-31

Any person who violates or fails to comply with any provisions of this chapter shall, upon conviction, be fined not more than $10,000, or be imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.



TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 53 > Subchapter D > § 5872 Prev | Next

§ 5872. Forfeitures


Release date: 2005-08-31

(a) Laws applicable
Any firearm involved in any violation of the provisions of this chapter shall be subject to seizure and forfeiture, and (except as provided in subsection {B}) all the provisions of internal revenue laws relating to searches, seizures, and forfeitures of unstamped articles are extended to and made to apply to the articles taxed under this chapter, and the persons to whom this chapter applies.

Edited by rhlowe, 03 December 2005 - 04:05 AM.

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#29 Z3BigDaddy

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Posted 02 December 2005 - 05:54 PM

Well quite a thread you got goin here Mr. Lowe..... tongue.gif In the bit since this started from what I can find it states just what markings have to be on the gun when "shipped" but the only obliteration verbage seems to be on the serial number. I've mailed a letter off to find out what I can do to my gun as it is a full auto semi and it would be nice to dump the semi-stuff. I'm still interested in seeing the man's work and what he can do......

Blaine
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#30 railroader

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Posted 02 December 2005 - 07:24 PM

Let me see if I have this straight. A West Hurley 28 or M1 is a replica of either a Savage or Auto Ordance 28 or M1, and a Savage or Auto Ordance 28 is a replica of the Colt 21, and a Colt 21 is a replica of Thompsons original design?
smile.gif
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#31 ghostsoldier

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Posted 02 December 2005 - 07:56 PM

So...which came first...the chicken or the egg?!? blink.gif
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#32 John Jr

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Posted 02 December 2005 - 09:07 PM

QUOTE (rhlowe @ Dec 2 2005, 02:03 PM)
Ok Guys:

This may be a little long but, When Phil origanally posted his "that is illegal" post which I assume is based on hearsay and emotion. I asked him to cite the USC. Not hard to do. He didn't so I have done it for him here. You'll find the cite at the end of all this.

Phil stated;

"I agree with our members who suggest putting the brakes on this "moving" of manufacturer marks. It's not called "moving". It is "removing". That's illegal. Isn't it simple? I don't think ATF or the Department of Justice would, or should, agree that hiding new markings someplace else makes everything sweetness and roses again. The rules say you don't grind 'em off. They don't say you can grind them off if you then place new ones under the grip bar, in the slot, in characters .035" high or something."

Well, ya know what Phil was kinda right see USC 26 E 53 5861 (g), {h} & (i) which I have thoughtfully cut and paste below. then Phil tells us this;

"I have an original first run Pasadena Automag, where they only etched the factory name and model markings on the receiver with some chemical process. It wears off, and did. So I had an engraver DEEPLY engrave them back on, over the faint remnants of the old ones, and working from a photo. I feel better about that, and it's about as far as I would suggest anybody go, in messing with markings."

Phil If those markings wore off on your clothing while you were carrying the gun then you removed them! I guess the ATF is aware of this problem.

Well, I called the ATF firearms technology branch some years ago and they advised that their ruling was that the serial number must be maintained as it was required to be affixed in a manner which may not be readily removed. there is a ruling which covers this. The ATF also advised that that they had ruled only the serial number fell under this as it is the only identification which must be affixed in a manner which may not be readily removed. See USC 26 B 1 5842 (a) which I have thoughtfully cut and paste below. The ATF rulings are law. An unusual situation as they are the only law enforcement agency in the United States that is capable of making the laws that they enforce. The ATF rulings are published I do not have them in hand but, I'll get them for you if you would like Phil.

Never the less, the law does not prohibit moving the manufacture's marking It does however prohibit changing that marking. Lets see Auto Ordnance Company. Yep that is the maker and will remain the maker. There are some further rulings that also cover the place of manufacture being displayed on the firearm and I intend to comply with those rulings as well, only inside the magwell. Phil you yourself have done with your Automag exactly what I intend to do. Your new markings have moved from their original location weather you realize it or not. They may not have moved to a different surface of the receiver but they moved when they were reapplyed. Does this set you up for a felony indictment? I hardly think so. I understand that firearms law is a highly emotional issue for you. Before you say that is illegal I would recommend you read the statute that governs what ever you are referring to.


TITLE 26--INTERNAL REVENUE CODE

Subtitle E--Alcohol, Tobacco, and Certain Other Excise Taxes

CHAPTER 53--

Subchapter B--General Provisions and Exemptions

PART I--GENERAL PROVISIONS

Sec. 5842. Identification of firearms


(a) Identification of firearms other than destructive devices

Each manufacturer and importer and anyone making a firearm shall
identify each firearm, other than a destructive device, manufactured,
imported, or made by a serial number which may not be readily removed,
obliterated, or altered, the name of the manufacturer, importer, or
maker, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulations
prescribe.




TITLE 26--INTERNAL REVENUE CODE

Subtitle E--Alcohol, Tobacco, and Certain Other Excise Taxes

CHAPTER 53--MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER
FIREARMS

Subchapter C--Prohibited Acts

Sec. 5861. Prohibited acts

It shall be unlawful for any person--

(g) to obliterate, remove, change, or alter the serial number or
other identification of a firearm required by this chapter; or
(h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or
other identification required by this chapter obliterated, removed,
changed, or altered; or
(i) to receive or possess a firearm which is not identified by a
serial number as required by this chapter; or



TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 53 > Subchapter D > § 5871 Prev | Next

§ 5871. Penalties


Release date: 2005-08-31

Any person who violates or fails to comply with any provisions of this chapter shall, upon conviction, be fined not more than $10,000, or be imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.



TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 53 > Subchapter D > § 5872 Prev | Next

§ 5872. Forfeitures


Release date: 2005-08-31

(a) Laws applicable
Any firearm involved in any violation of the provisions of this chapter shall be subject to seizure and forfeiture, and (except as provided in subsection (cool.gif) all the provisions of internal revenue laws relating to searches, seizures, and forfeitures of unstamped articles are extended to and made to apply to the articles taxed under this chapter, and the persons to whom this chapter applies.

popcorn.gif
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#33 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 02 December 2005 - 09:41 PM

QUOTE (railroader @ Dec 2 2005, 07:24 PM)
Let me see if I have this straight. A West Hurley 28 or M1 is a replica of either a Savage or Auto Ordance 28 or M1, and a Savage or Auto Ordance 28 is a replica of the Colt 21, and a Colt 21 is a replica of Thompsons original design?
smile.gif

railroader,

The reason why WH's are replicas has been covered pretty thoroughly on this board. The WWII TSMG are not. It has to do with the time the original Auto Ordnance Corporation became defunct in 1944. For further evidence refer to any publication by Roger Cox, Doug Richardson, William J. Helmer and Gordon Herigstadt.

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#34 rhlowe

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Posted 03 December 2005 - 03:40 AM

Well Guys:

I guess this thread is about to run out of steam. I had a great time with Y'all and a couple of you actually answered my question. No negative comments on Craig Jordan.

Ron & Mark: thanks for the reference.

Big Daddy, Philasteen and all of Y'all: thanks for jumping on my band wagon.

PK: I figure worst case I'll lose .010 of .120 wall on the receiver. I'll take the risk. If I were in your position I probably wouldn't do this for a customer. If everything goes to s**t I'll be the one with a black eye from the back end of the receiver. There is a stress riser at the back end of the frame rails a 1/16 end mill will fix that?

Phil: You may be right. I'll be talking to Craig Jordan about what we have discussed here. I'm comfortable with this but, I can't go to the federal pen I don't play golf or tennis.

Arthur Arthur Arthur: You know when I worked narcotics they made me go to a topless bar. Have you ever been to one? Why were you looking at those things?!!!!!!!!!! You know they are fake fraudulent a misrepresentation of the real woman. I like the 21a. Without those markings it would look like the above mentioned fake things without an areola. I do however understand your position. If I had what I assume (dangerous) you have I'd probably be a little upset with this to. When I'm finished with this project if we are ever at the same place together with our guns all you will hear is a loud thud as I throw my project gun on the ground so that I can get a close look at what you have.

T-man hasn't commented I understand that from a police officers point of view.

Y'all are a great bunch of guys. Heck Frank didn't have to delete any posts the moderators on most boards have to do that a lot.

I'll post some photos of this thing when I am through. Don't get in a hurry I'm not.

Thanks,
Richard

Edited by rhlowe, 03 December 2005 - 03:52 AM.

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#35 Hawkeye_Joe

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Posted 03 December 2005 - 03:50 AM

Welcome to the Board..... wink.gif troll.gif Enjoy your stay ..
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#36 LIONHART

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Posted 04 December 2005 - 02:12 PM

popcorn.gif
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#37 rhlowe

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Posted 04 December 2005 - 06:54 PM

Phil:

I just found it interesting that you made the statement "That's Illegal" and then were unable to provide a cite of the Law. By the letter of the law you are right. I stated that I had a telephone conversation with the ATF firearms technology branch some years ago and advised what there response was, ATF ruling. Possibly you missed that portion of my post. There sure are a bunch of guys that provide engraving services. I don't think this would be going on if it were illegal. You should know that your Automag is not a firearm according to title 26 USC, but since you bring it up you say "I had them engraved much, much deeper, exactly on top of what remained, and in precisely the same size and configuration as what was worn off...whether or not it was "required" by anybody else; I required it". It would have been impossible for your engraver to engrave these markings in exactly the same location if he was really good they may have moved as little as .001 but I would suspect that they moved much more than that no matter how bad you wanted them in the same location. It doesn't matter because a pistol is not a firearm according to title 26 USC. Title 26 USC is what we are concerned with here it governs machineguns If you were the legal expert that you would have liked for me to believed that you were when you originally posted your negative comments you would know this. It appears that you are giving legal advice to someone who evidently understands the law much better than you do. Lets just take the emotion portion out of what I said. I apologize for that comment your legal knowledge is based on hearsay. Have you read any portion of title 26 USC other than what I have posted here for you? You also made comments about Italian single actions with colt markings again not a title 26 firearm, but by simply putting a reproduction first generation SAA barrel in most Italian single action's it will very closely approximate an original colt though the serial number wont work I have seen this done often and there are several engravers that will remark your Italian barrel still not title 26. Now title 26 weapons I have an UZI done by Broadhead Armory during the ban rush it has no markings only a serial number It has been inspected by ATF as it was purchased from Stemple. The ATF while investigating Stemple examined the gun and not a word was said. They evidently wanted stemple and if they could have made a case based on this I believe they would have. I am basing my knowledge of this situation on hearsay (telephone conversation with ATF) but I'm comfortable with having the gun remarked. You believe that remarking this gun is Illegal, Immoral and unconstitutional and I do not. There is no point in us discussing this further. banghead.gif

Thanks,
Richard
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#38 LIONHART

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 03:17 PM

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#39 ClevelandShooter

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 04:43 PM

QUOTE (rhlowe @ Dec 1 2005, 07:38 AM)
I,m about to send a WH 28 off to Craig Jordan, Tiffany Arms for engraving and a barrel. Has anybody delt with him?

Welcome to the board Richard. A problem that occurs here is you ask a simple question (as is quoted) and it becomes a ruckus. Craig Jordon has been in this business for years and the guns I've seen from Tiffany Arms are first class in fit, finish and function.
I also must say that there is a lot of info here and a good group of members Except ARTY laugh.gif MR COLT HISELF.
It's your gun you are working with a reputable manufacturer, have fun.
I guess if I took the Dodge markings off of my truck and replaced them with ford someone would have a tizzy. But the title (read form 4 ) is the final say. Once again welcome
BILL OUT
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#40 Nick Iannamico

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 03:32 AM

I take a little nap and now this? nutkick.gif


keep it under control fellas. slap.gif
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