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Has Anybody Delt With Craig Jordan


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#41 Hawkeye_Joe

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 01:36 PM

Ya mean this one??

user posted image

I also like this one....it covers a lot of this stuff in here too..

user posted image

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#42 Z3BigDaddy

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 03:03 PM




Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Office of Public and Governmental Affairs
650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW.
Room 8290
Washington, DC 20226


To Whom It May Concern:,

I have questions as to the legality of remarking the receiver of a firearm. Specifically I bought a registered firing pin allowing me to create a class III firearm in a semi-auto frame. The frame has not been altered in any form just the firing pin that is in it. I would like to remove some of the script on the semi-auto frame for esthetic reasons. I will not in any way be altering the serial number with this process. Once again the firing pin is the registered part not the receiver and there will be no alteration of the serial number in any way.

Thank you in advance for your help,



Blaine R Clark



Some people, name withheld, will still argue coming from me and all but here is my response from ATF concerning remarking of a firearm.....





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#43 OldFalGuy

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 07:44 PM

Well done Z3-
Providing that info to them will not change thier answer IMHO.
Now lets put some WD-40 on it..... hahahahaha
You da man
Mark
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#44 rhlowe

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 10:20 AM

Thanks Blaine

Richard
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#45 TSMGguy

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 12:51 PM

rhlowe, with respect, I don't know how good your metal prep is, but I'll personally guarantee that PK's is better.

Let him do what you need, and follow his advice. He is The Master.

I sent him my WH M1 to be turned into an emulation of a WWII M1 TSMG, and it is awesome indeed, with a perfect blued finish and all of the original poor quality WH machineing completed and perfect. I posted an extensive series of photos of this gun on this site.

Regardless how it's marked, your WH '28 can never be a Colt. It has value in its own right, which may well be ruined by what you propose. Original TSMGs were never pantograph marked.

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#46 calibre

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Posted 28 January 2006 - 12:52 AM

And now let's hear from the guy this is all about.

Let me explain my conversation with Mr. Lowe as I remember it.

First, I told Mr. Lowe that we could not "remove" his West Hurley address and/or serial number. That what I could do was "move" it to a different location (magazine well) where it would be readily accessable to ATF inspection. NOT ILLEGAL! Done BEFORE originals markings are removed.

Part of my business is reproduction A4's,A6's and 1917's. When the guns come in with some goofy manufacturer's logo where the Saginaw or Westinghouse address should be ... I engrave their logo on the bottom edge of the receiver, weld up the address on the rear of the gun and commence to engrave the appropriate logo and proof marks. (The "current" serial number of the gun is placed in the appropriate spot in the new address. If the customer wants, his intials are used as U.S. INSP.)


If you have ever seen the 1928 Colt watercooled MG's that Collector's Corner sold years ago ... I designed and engraved all that logo on the receiver. Mike Brown's original address would have been on the inside of the gun after it was built. To comply with ATF regulations his Group Industries address was engraved along the bottom edge. ATF liked the idea as they didn't think taking the gun apart to check the serial number and manufacturer address would be fun. (It actually is not technically correct to have it on the inside of the receiver.)

This did not make the gun an "original" Colt nor was there any intent on my part to deceive anyone into thinking that so! And I have never heard any feedback that Bob was doing so either. The markings were done to give the gun an "aire" of originality.

This is all that I would be doing for Mr. Lowe. His serial number would not change nor would the paperwork ... still a West Hurley gun and would give his gun an "aire" of originality.

As for Mr. Lowe claiming in this thread that he has already removed all the markings from said receiver ... I had explained to him when he called that I would not accept a sanitized hunk of metal into my shop. (I believe he wanted to do this to save $.)
This sanitized piece could be anything but the original West Hurley and I am not going to jail for anybody!! I have too much legal work to do than to get involved with unknowns!!

I run, and always have, a straight up legal business. I've been doing this for 26 six years now and those of you who only know how to pull a trigger ... should keep your digits off the keyboard. Everyone knows what is said about arguing with an I.D.10 T. As the old saying goes - "I have forgotten more than most of you know!!!"

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people. This about covers it ... where do "you" fit in this thread?

Ron - As far as you go ... you were a pain in the arse to deal with back in the day and the "fax" thing was just the icing on the cake. No hard feelings about it but if you're waiting for an apology from me because you were a dick ... sorry it ain't comin'.

Lionheart - enjoyed the popcorn thingy ... this was entertaining, wasn't it?






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#47 Z3BigDaddy

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Posted 28 January 2006 - 01:31 PM

QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Jan 28 2006, 09:14 AM)

Then ATF said the request was not clear to them, and they needed more info, to be able to knowexactly what they would be "O.K.ing"

When things are fuzzy, this is exactly the right way to do it. Not some other way.


Nothing is fuzzy in the least in paragraph two of that letter. And yes they did not give a specific answer to "my" particular project but I don't think there is any need for further clarification or permission. I'm not planning on doing anything that is not plainly and "clearly" addressed in paragraph two. I wanted an answer for the general question and I recieved it. It looks pretty damn black and white to me but if you want to read into something to get another shade then have at it..... but for me I'm full steam ahead on the very final touches to the SFAB gun.....
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#48 colt21a

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Posted 28 January 2006 - 06:42 PM

QUOTE (calibre @ Jan 28 2006, 12:52 AM)

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people. This about covers it ... where do "you" fit in this thread?

Ron - As far as you go ... you were a pain in the arse to deal with back in the day and the "fax" thing was just the icing on the cake. No hard feelings about it but if you're waiting for an apology from me because you were a dick ... sorry it ain't comin'.

  WOW craig you remembered however i never called you a dick...the name is ron, like you like to be called craig right??it was a freakin joke get it!! get it...!!and i didn't even get a piece of the cake. was it chocolate or white??wink!! life's way too short for problem's...and i gave you a good review read the post.....your still the cat's pajama's....t.c.ron

peace out!!
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#49 45fan

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Posted 29 January 2006 - 06:12 PM

Paragraph two of the ATF letter is crystal clear as to what an individual may do regarding manufacturers markings. ATF, Tech Branch simply declined to make a ruling on this specific firearm. That's the way I read the letter. I'm not sure whether or not you'd consider me a "prudent person," Phil; but I am a lawyer. wink.gif

Incidentally, the statement, "an individual may not re-mark or change a serial number in any way" is interesting considering that it is not uncommon to move serial numbers around on a firearm without any alteration of the number the itself.

Sam
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#50 Z3BigDaddy

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Posted 30 January 2006 - 05:39 PM

OK So I gather from your postings the bottom line is, I asked the right people but they gave the wrong answer or a non-defining answer at best? I've seen Mr. Sterling’s name on many documents so I don't believe he is new to the game.... Now I will concede that markings other than the serial number are required by law of the manufacturer but my letter did not address that. I do know that if you ask the same question enough times of the ATF eventually the answer "will" be no and then the letter "does" become law... The Oly receiver letter being a good example.... So as far as I'm concerned this letter is defining as to my project....
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#51 DougStump

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Posted 30 January 2006 - 07:28 PM

At great risk of getting bashed, I'm going to toss in my .02 worth. I am not a lawyer, and I did not sleep at Motel 6 last night.

My opinion is: If you change any original markings on the receiver, then it will be YOUR responsibility to prove that it is the original and not a replacement receiver. In my view, that is going to be durn near impossible.

Of course, I consider my Savage M1A1 to be a REAL thompson!

Doug

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#52 45fan

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Posted 30 January 2006 - 08:28 PM

Oh, nevermind. Now I remember why I seldom post anything. rolleyes.gif
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#53 ghostsoldier

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Posted 30 January 2006 - 09:13 PM

Now, now, fellas...don't make Nick come back out and start slapping heads again... slap.gif
Rob
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#54 John Jr

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Posted 30 January 2006 - 10:44 PM

user posted image

QUOTE
Paragraph two of the ATF letter is crystal clear as to what an individual may do regarding manufacturers markings. ATF, Tech Branch simply declined to make a ruling on this specific firearm. That's the way I read the letter. I'm not sure whether or not you'd consider me a "prudent person," Phil; but I am a lawyer. 


QUOTE
It can be interpreted as putting the seal of approval on the owner's grinding off all identifying markings from a firearm except for the serial number.


iagree.gif iagree.gif iagree.gif
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#55 Z3BigDaddy

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 12:43 AM

QUOTE (45fan @ Jan 30 2006, 08:28 PM)
Oh, nevermind.  Now I remember why I seldom post anything. rolleyes.gif

Aw cumon, you gonna leave me here as the only voice of reason on this one..... nono.gif

Just a reminder of what Phil said.....


"For those who say they don't understand why, I am confident there are people at ATF and Justice who will be happy to explain. But it's always better to have it explained before, rather than after...

This is beginning to sound like a monthly debate session of the Flat Earth Society, with the usual star contributor taking the most entertaining position.
"

Are you as confident now as you were before? Guess the earth is flat.... who wulda guessed?

Last posting for me on this subject.....
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#56 Tman

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:46 AM

I'm glad someone wrote to FTB and requested a determination. When I had a meeting with FTB last week, this subject was brought up briefly. We were examining an H&K 94 or SP89 that had been remarked MP5. FTB said that it was kosher as long as the s/n was not messed with.
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#57 21 smoker

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 12:33 PM

Thanks Greg!...I was waitng for you to chime in....it is good to hear from an NFA collector and the ATF at the same time... wink.gif
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#58 Z3BigDaddy

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 12:33 PM

QUOTE (Tman @ Jan 31 2006, 11:46 AM)
I'm glad someone wrote to FTB and requested a determination. When I had a meeting with FTB last week, this subject was brought up briefly. We were examining an H&K 94 or SP89 that had been remarked MP5. FTB said that it was kosher as long as the s/n was not messed with.

Thank you for your pov Greg.
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#59 rhlowe

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 07:11 PM

Calibre:

You misread my post. I have removed the markings from the frame not the receiver. I hope you weren't offended that I sought references here. I don't have the receiver disassembled yet, but will get-r-done soon and then send it off. I'll call you.

45fan:

Yep me to.

Blaine:

Send that thing off to Craig. Your letter from ATF is clear.

Don't argue with an idiott,
Richard
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#60 Z3BigDaddy

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 01:00 PM

QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Feb 1 2006, 10:56 AM)
QUOTE (rhlowe @ Jan 31 2006, 07:11 PM)


Don't argue with an idiott,
Richard

Yes Richurd, thetz kinda how I fele aboot it...xept we mite disugree on jus whoo iz wun.

Butt 2 mek yur reedurz thank yoo aint wun 2, chek tuh se how tuh spill "idiot" befor splainun bout dealen wid em.

Mebbe sum reedurz caint evun be kunvinct uv thet no way ennyhowz. Butt thayz jus idiottz!

wink.gif

"And if some people look like a moron in the process... so be it. "

Damn, am I good at calling it or what? I guess when you lose the argument, there is always internet spelling and grammar to attack.... Priceless... laugh.gif
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