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#201 Lancer

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 07:18 PM

QUOTE (TD. @ Aug 28 2006, 07:29 PM)
I even have Lancer now saying that maybe the Thompson when transferred from Maguire is a bastard child from General Thompson's original company. Actually, that is not a bad analogy; Lancer, I may steal that phrase from you someday. smile.gif [/SIZE][/color][/font]

TD
You are more than welcome to use the phrase. Actually I'm a bit surprised you signed on to the analogy being as how it questions the legitimacy of the present day Auto Ordnance. Now if Arthur would sign on.........do I smell a compromise in the air? Nah,.... can't be.
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#202 TD.

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 07:35 PM

Lancer,
I doubt Arthur and I will reach a compromise anytime soon. Actually, Arthur is very knowledgeable about the Thompson Submachine Gun. I enjoy reading his technical assessments about the different Colt Thompson’s that have appeared on this board with questions concerning parts, finish, etc. Unfortunately, he is stuck on corporate succession when it comes to the history of the Thompson and the quality control by the later owners. I don't think the term "bastard" really questions the legitimacy of the Thompson line of succession; to me it just shows that the Thompson has followed an interesting path to its present location. Considering the path it took while with the General, an eventful journey afterward should have been expected.
Thanks,

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#203 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 07:55 PM

TD,

You seem to single me out as the sole entity that explodes the "unbroken chain" myth. Leaving aside the recent posters in this thread, Phil, Norm, rhlowe, and even Lancer, who do not share your conclusions, let us not forget that Gordon Herigstadt, Roger Cox, Doug Richardson and William Helmer do not support your position either. Since you have no documents to support your position, do you have any published author who you could cite that does? Using Numrich's own words in an interview are not going to carry the day.

"Follow the transfers, follow the money, follow the reason for purchase and follow what each owner did with the Thompson. The line of succession is continuous." TD

Let's examine your "chain" of owners:

Kilgore's purchase in 1949 resulted in.....0 TSMG's made. He didn't even know about the 85-100(?) complete TSMG's in the crates.

Fred Willis purchase in 1951 resulted in.....0 TSMG's made. He didn't know about the 85-100(?) complete TSMG's in the crates.

George Numrich purchase in 1951 resulted in......0 TSMG's made. He didn't know about the 85-100(?) complete TSMG's in the crates. Now in this instance, Numrich's ignorance about the existing TSMG's is puzzling since, as you claim, he bought the crates from Willis for the express purpose of manufacturing from scratch new TSMG's. Maybe he figured there were thousands of TSMG's he could import? How much money did he make from selling these crated 100 some TSMG's? $20,000? How much did he pay Willis for the crates?

Now back to your rules for unbroken chains of succession we must suspend all previously accepted laws of product succession.

1) Whether the name of the original TSMG company AOC (the one that developed, manufactured, and marketed TSMG from 1916- 1944) follows the sale of crates is immaterial since corporation names don't count.

2) For 31 years, a new TSMG made under the auspices of the original AOC did not exist until Trast made 1927A1's and smg's in 1975 under the umbrella of the brand new AOC name. By TD's law this absence of product is irrelevant because unbroken chains of lineage are not depended upon existence of newly made product to claim membership in the unbroken chain club.


"Auto-Ordnance Corporation ceased to exist before the end of World War II." TD


This is where your wires got horribly crossed. AOC did not cease to exist at that time. But it did stop having anything to do with making Thompson's after March, 1944. As stated in the previous post, AOC stayed with the Maguire family. By the time Maguire made the sale of crates in 1949, the AOC that was responsible for making TSMG's was no longer the name of the business that Maguire had renamed his firearms company. In fact, Maguire not only did not make Thompson's under the new name "Ordnance Division," he didn't make any firearms.

Had Maguire made TSMG's under the AOC name right up to the sale of the crates to Kilgore in 1949, or at least kept the AOC name for his firearm branch, then, and only then, would it be possible for Kilgore to have purchased, and Maguire to have sold, the original company that made TSMG's. Just because Maguire said I am through with making/selling/marketing TSMG's in 1944, in no way translates into Kilgore being able to state he bought the crates from AOC and, therefore, now owns the AOC that made TSMG's prior to 1945.

The more likely scenario is that Maguire told Kilgore, "Here yo go. Now have fun making Thompson's under your own business name." It sure seems that Numrich took this advice and used his Numrich Arms Corporation to sell existing TSMG's and fix broken ones.

As far as "bastard child?" Like "Big Valley's" Heath Barkley? I'm thinking more like "My Three Sons" Ernie Thompson Douglas.

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#204 Grey Crow

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 08:40 PM

One thing for certain, this topic could go on for years.
Well years past what it has already survived.

I still find it extreemly interesting to read.

So far as bastardized guns, even the Trast era would fall under that heading. They never worked well either! But Ira gave it the ole Collage "Ra". Speaking of Ira Trast, is he even alive? Perhaps he may be a souce of info, or his family.

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#205 TD.

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 08:45 PM

Arthur,
So much mis-information and pure guesses sprinkled with a little truth here and there. But I will let you stew in it. However, one thing you said is very interesting:

QUOTE
The more likely scenario is that Maguire told Kilgore, "Here yo go. Now have fun making Thompson's under your own business name." It sure seems that Numrich took this advice and used his Numrich Arms Corporation to sell existing TSMG's and fix broken ones.

You're right on point. Actually, Maguire didn't care what name Kilgore was planning to use or whether or not it ever made or sold any Thompsons. Maguire sold off a product line - end of story as far as Maguire is concerned. And George? Well he sold some Thompsons well before Numrich Arms Corporation came to life...but that is another story.
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#206 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 09:08 PM

"Maguire didn't care what name Kilgore was planning to use or whether or not it ever made or sold any Thompsons." TD

As long as Kilgore didn't use the AOC name and that he applied for use of the bullet logo, you are correct. Maguire couldn't care less since he was already hatching his next scam.
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#207 TD.

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 09:13 PM

Arthur,
Why would Maguire care if someone used the AOC name since it had abandoned that name 5 year earlier?

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#208 ghostsoldier

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 09:19 PM

So let me get this straight...when my wife takes my FA Thompson money and buys that new facelift, liposuction, and new boobs, then I'll be sleeping with a "replica"?! blink.gif
Rob
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#209 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 10:39 PM

TD,

Abandoned? Once more just for you:


Roger Cox:

"The original Auto Ordnance Corporation is still (circa 1982) a valid New York chartered corporation. It was incorporated on August 25, 1916, and with the two name changes is still in business today in Dallas, Texas headed by Cary Maguire, the son of Russell, although far removed from firearms manufacture. The name was changed officially to Maguire Industries, Inc., on March 15, 1944, and again to Components Corporation of America on March 14, 1961.


ghostsoldier:

Only if she gets a new soul as well.

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#210 TD.

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 05:44 AM

Arthur: Once more just for you:

The corporation still exists. It has changed names two times since being formed by General Thompson in 1916. The names Auto-Ordnance and Maguire Industries were discarded after the name changes. Components Corporation of America has no claim on or for these names. These names became available for use by anyone with proper application to the State of New York. Please note how George Numrich/Ira Trast formed a new Auto-Ordnance Corporation in the State of New York in the 70's to manufacture firearms. This name would not have been approved for current use if it was still in use by Components.

The corporation has nothing to do with the Thompson line of succession after Maguire Industries, Inc. Follow the product; the trail is clearly marked. If you follow the corporation, you end up in Dallas. If you follow the product, you end up at Kahr Arms. I'm following the product....

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#211 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 02:25 PM

TD,

I can't improve on Phil's post. But I do find it interesting that you seem to acknowledge that Maguire did not sell the AOC name to Kilgore. So if the name of the business that made TSMG's was not sold along with the crates then whomever took possession of the crates could not claim any direct relationship to the original AOC company.

You can't have it both ways. Either the original "AOC" was sold to Kilgore/Willis/Numrich or it was up for grabs to "anyone with proper application to the State of New York." But since there is no way to make this fit into your line of succession theory, you are left with the notion that whomever owned the crates, owned the original entity that made the TSMG.

What is the harm in admitting that the "AOC" Trast manufactured his 1927A1 and TSMG's under is not the same one that Maguire made TSMG's under in 1944? You even refer to Trast's "AOC" as new." If George Gershwin were the third guy in the sale of the Maguire crates instead of George Numrich would you still be making this pitch?

Is it necessary, or even prudent, to manipulate the standard practices of company purchases/mergers/take overs to preserve George Numrich's legacy because he donated a Model 1923 prototype Thompson to the West Point Museum?

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#212 TD.

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 08:53 PM

Phil - Your post is painful to read. You really need to do some original research on this subject before you post. Everything I stated was true.

Arthur - I am sad to see you are still hanging on to the corporation angle. I thought you might have something new or original to add in this conversation. If I was going to use the corporation angle to espouse your flawed views on this subject, I would have ended the original Auto-Ordnance Corporation with the creation of the Thompson Automatic Arms Corporation in 1939. After all, the World War II Thompson’s are nothing like the original Colt Thompson’s. I know you will continue on trying to confuse everyone about the original Auto-Ordnance Corporation, New York, New York and the much newer Auto-Ordnance Corporation, West Hurley, New York. Yes, they are connected in a line of succession with the Thompson. But as everyone knows, the new corporation did not derive directly from the old corporation. The old corporation sold off the Thompson product line in 1949 and moved on to other things. One of the future owners (George Numrich/Ira Trast) of the Thompson product formed the new corporation in 1974 to market new and old Thompson’s. This is all public record. Let me state this again:

The Auto-Ordnance Corporation still exists. It has changed names two times since being formed by General Thompson in 1916. The names Auto-Ordnance and Maguire Industries were discarded after the name changes. The current name is now Components Corporation of America. Components Corporation of America has no claim on these former names. These names became available for use by anyone with proper application to the State of New York. Please note how George Numrich/Ira Trast formed a new Auto-Ordnance Corporation in the State of New York in the 70's to manufacture firearms. This name would not have been approved for current use if it was still in use by Components.

The corporation has nothing to do with the Thompson line of succession after Maguire Industries, Inc. Follow the product; the trail is clearly marked. If you follow the corporation, you end up in Dallas. If you follow the product, you end up at Kahr Arms. I'm following the product....

If you can find anything wrong with what I posted, please state by what authority. I have researched it thoroughly - and enjoyed every minute of it.


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#213 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 11:00 PM

Arthur - I am sad to see you are still hanging on to the corporation angle. I thought you might have something new or original to add in this conversation.

Sure. And your posts are filled with new material? I've seen more originality from Elmyr de Hory.

If I was going to use the corporation angle to espouse your flawed views on this subject, I would have ended the original Auto-Ordnance Corporation with the creation of the Thompson Automatic Arms Corporation in 1939. After all, the World War II Thompson’s are nothing like the original Colt Thompson’s. I know you will continue on trying to confuse everyone about the original Auto-Ordnance Corporation, New York, New York and the much newer Auto-Ordnance Corporation, West Hurley, New York. Yes, they are connected in a line of succession with the Thompson. But as everyone knows, the new corporation did not derive directly from the old corporation.

The old corporation sold off the Thompson product line in 1949 and moved on to other things.

Maguire's new company, Ordnance Division, that existed at the time he sold the crates in 1949, did not make any TSMG's. It also did not have anything to do with the TSMG. The company that did make TSMG's, AOC, stopped making them in March of 1944. That company was indeed maintained by the Maguire family. There is no getting around this fact.

One of the future owners (George Numrich/Ira Trast) of the Thompson product formed the new corporation in 1974 to market new and old Thompson’s. This is all public record.

If Numrich owned AOC and he sold AOC to Trast, why would Trast need to form a new AOC? It is true that there is a record of Trast applying for the right to make his version of the Thompson in 1974 and 1984. But there is no record of in reverse order Numrich, Kilgore or Willis buying anything other than crates.

The Auto-Ordnance Corporation still exists. It has changed names two times since being formed by General Thompson in 1916. The names Auto-Ordnance and Maguire Industries were discarded after the name changes.

AOC was not discarded by the Maguire family. Repeating it is not fact. The above paragraph is from Roger Cox except for your erroneous added last sentence Are you calling Roger Cox a liar? Please cite your authority?

The current name is now Components Corporation of America. Components Corporation of America has no claim on these former names. These names became available for use by anyone with proper application to the State of New York. Please note how George Numrich/Ira Trast formed a new Auto-Ordnance Corporation in the State of New York in the 70's to manufacture firearms. This name would not have been approved for current use if it was still in use by Components.

Approved? By whom? Again. This is the sort of "documentation" and logic you rely on for your "unbroken chain" missing link theory.

The corporation has nothing to do with the Thompson line of succession after Maguire Industries, Inc. Follow the product; the trail is clearly marked. If you follow the corporation, you end up in Dallas. If you follow the product, you end up at Kahr Arms. I'm following the product....

How can I end up in Dallas with a Maguire if Russell abandoned the AOC name? Following the merchandise is a valuable tool in arresting drug dealers and their suppliers. It has zero credibility in determining proof of the continuation of the original business that made an original product.

If you can find anything wrong with what I posted, please state by what authority. I have researched it thoroughly - and enjoyed every minute of it.

Are you privy to documents that the rest of us are not? If not, we have all seen the same material. What seems ineffable to you, mostly your reverence for all things Numrich, is completely lacking in substance to amateur TSMG devotees like myself and professional authorities like Helmer, Cox, Richardson and Herigstadt.
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#214 John Jr

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 11:05 PM

At this stage in the thread, you have to ask yourself....does anyone give a shit anymore????











































user posted image





nutkick.gif


biggrin.gif
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#215 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 11:17 PM

JJ,

Apparently you do since you are compelled to regale us with your famously obnoxious cut & paste selections.

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#216 Norm

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 02:25 AM

user posted image
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#217 TD.

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 06:50 AM

Jr/Norm - AGREE

Arthur - It is simply amazing the lengths one will go to in an attempt to preserve something they very much want to believe is true. May I suggest some original research on your part? Let me state the facts again to help you with your pain:

The Auto-Ordnance Corporation still exists. It has changed names two times since being formed by General Thompson in 1916. The names Auto-Ordnance and Maguire Industries were discarded after the name changes. The current name is now Components Corporation of America. Components Corporation of America has no claim on these former names. These names became available for use by anyone with proper application to the State of New York. Please note how George Numrich/Ira Trast formed a new Auto-Ordnance Corporation in the State of New York in the 70's to manufacture firearms. This name would not have been approved for current use if it was still in use by Components.

The corporation has nothing to do with the Thompson line of succession after Maguire Industries, Inc. Follow the product; the trail is clearly marked. If you follow the corporation, you end up in Dallas. If you follow the product, you end up at Kahr Arms. I'm following the product....

Just another little tidbit for thought: Maguire Industries, Inc., now Components Corporation of America, sold off the Thompson in 1949. Please note since that time how George Numrich, Ira Trast and now Kahr Arms use the Auto-Ordnance name and everything Thompson with authority and without objection from Maguire, now Components. In my business, we call this fact a clue!

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#218 TD.

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 10:19 PM

Phil,
This post is also painful to read. It contains nothing of value. I don't mean any offense and certainly do not want to ruin the relationship we have on this board. However, may I suggest putting some of that government training to work by doing some original research on this subject before you post again. Everything I stated was true. By your remarks in the last paragraph, it appears you must have been some type of analyst for your former employer. I don't banter around what I do for a living, but let me just say people take my phone calls in that city you once worked in.

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#219 TD.

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 07:17 PM

Phil,
Of course, we are still friends and Thompson co-conspirators! We just happen to believe in different paths the Thompson has taken since 1916. I fully support you in your beliefs...but I happen to think they are misguided. The entire story has not been written on this subject. But that will come someday. Since we are here, I do want to show you one thing regarding the last several posts. Here is the quote from Roger Cox as per Arthur (I assume it is right as I am in travel status and do not have my Cox book handy):

Roger Cox:

"The original Auto Ordnance Corporation is still (circa 1982) a valid New York chartered corporation. It was incorporated on August 25, 1916, and with the two name changes is still in business today in Dallas, Texas headed by Cary Maguire, the son of Russell, although far removed from firearms manufacture. The name was changed officially to Maguire Industries, Inc., on March 15, 1944, and again to Components Corporation of America on March 14, 1961.


Here is the first part of what I have been posting on the last several posts:

The Auto-Ordnance Corporation still exists. It has changed names two times since being formed by General Thompson in 1916. The names Auto-Ordnance and Maguire Industries were discarded after the name changes. The current name is now Components Corporation of America. Components Corporation of America has no claim on these former names. These names became available for use by anyone with proper application to the State of New York. Please note how George Numrich/Ira Trast formed a new Auto-Ordnance Corporation in the State of New York in the 70's to manufacture firearms. This name would not have been approved for current use if it was still in use by Components.

Notice that I have not contradicted one thing Roger Cox wrote about the corporation. I have certainly added to it, but what Roger has posted regarding the history of the corporation is correct. If you look at Arthur's post you will see that he skews every thing anyone posts if he does not agree with it. I never said the original corporation was abandoned or discarded, only the two former corporation names. Roger never addressed what happened to these old names in his book. I do address this issue and not by previously published information. Arthur's posts are filled with this type of mis-information, for example - “Maguire’s new company, Ordnance Division...." Arthur knows there was never a COMPANY owned by Maguire named Ordnance Division. Ordnance Division was a part of Maguire Industries, Inc. It is these types of posts with mis-information I like to point out. That is why I continue on with this thread.

I appreciate your response.
Thanks,

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#220 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 10:53 PM

TD,

"The Auto-Ordnance Corporation was downgraded to become merely the ORDNANCE DIVISION of a new parent company, Maguire Industries, Incorporated. " Bill Helmer

To say that Ordnance Divison is not a company, or a business, of Maguire Industries is absurd. Radio Shack is one business of the Tandy Company. This new company never made any TSMG's. The company that did make TSMG's, AOC, as you finally admit, was maintained by the Maguire family as was Maguire Industries.


"Please note since 1949, George Numrich, Ira Trast and now Kahr Arms use the Auto-Ordnance name and everything Thompson with authority and without objection from Maguire, now Components." TD

But Numrich never did use the AOC name on any TSMG made by him. We have put that issue to rest.

You somehow have extrapolated that because Maguire ceased production on TSMG's in March of 1944 and tucked away all the components used in the making of the Thompson, he also stuffed the original AOC name, the one that stayed with Maguire Industries, inside the crates as well. In fact AOC, while out of the TSMG business, was now in the oil well business, electrical equipment and compressed food products. Without the transfer of the original company's name that made the TSMG, you hit a brick wall.

Now you say AOC was never abandoned, only the name Maguire Industries and Components Corporation of America. All three are one and the same. Why do you think Cox bothered to make the point that AOC, regardless of the name changes, was still owned by the Maguire family? It goes directly to his point that the West Hurley is a replica of the original Thompson.


The corporation (AOC) has nothing to do with the Thompson line of succession after Maguire Industries, Inc." TD

It has everything to do with succession. Otherwise, the only thing left are the physical assets. Therefore, the only thing any buyer of the crates could do is make a Thompson, or in Numrich's case, assemble and fix a TSMG, under their own company names and not under the original AOC name. Why? Because that name did not automatically go with the crates. The proof of this fact is in the 3 initials "NAC."

No where in any of your post have you come up with any annotated or attributed information, other than to yourself, where it states Maguire did what you claim he did.

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