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Replica


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#321 TD.

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Posted 22 March 2007 - 09:42 PM

Arthur,
Whether or not George Numrich manufactured Thompson's from scratch is a new issue - but it has nothing to do with the succession of the Thompson - the main topic of this thread. These are separate subjects. Again, show me something new. I introduced the Bearse article. Thus far, no one has discredited what was said. And it was published in 1967!


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#322 reconbob

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Posted 22 March 2007 - 09:58 PM

There is something to be learned from
Numrich repeatedly boasting that he owned
the patents - a scant 25+ years after they all
expired and could not be "owned" by anyone.
This claim was total BS. Which makes one wonder,
what else was total BS?

Bob
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#323 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 22 March 2007 - 10:19 PM

Bob,

This is certainly suspicious to anyone who isn't a Numrich disciple. In fact, Numrich is self discrediting to the point that the Bearse article should have been published in "Astounding Stories" rather than "Gun Digest."

TD,
The replica aspect of the West Hurley Thompson, the fact that Numrich never made any TSMG's, and that Numrich never purchased anything but crated assets from Willis are not separate issues, but rather combine to make a tapestry of deceit dating back to 1951.

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#324 dalbert

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 05:20 AM

QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Mar 22 2007, 10:19 PM)
TD,
The replica aspect of the West Hurley Thompson, the fact that Maguire never made any TSMG's, and that Maguire never purchased anything but crated assets from Willis are not separate  issues, but rather combine to make a tapestry of deceit dating back to 1951. [/b][/color]

Arthur,

You need to take a second look at your "facts" before you post them...is it your position now that Maguire never manufactured a TSMG?

David
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#325 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 09:36 AM

Dave,

Now that was an example of valid criticism of an error of my post. I have correctly substituted Numrich for Maguire.

If you could only find fault with the preponderance of my other contentions with equal validity.

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#326 TNKen

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 10:25 AM

Has anyone ever done a search in the US Patent and Trademark office for the history of "Thompson", the "Bullet" logo and "Tommy Gun"?

Just curious.

Ken
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#327 reconbob

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 11:50 AM

Ken - you raise an excellent point. I would love to
know the FACTS. We do know (I have a copy) that
in 1975 the word "Thompson" and the bullet logo
we are all familiar with were awarded as a trademark
to Trast/West Hurley.
During the 25-30 years between the shutting down
of the original AO and the awarding of the trademark
in 1975 the word "Thompson" was widely used by many
people selling everything from replica guns to newly
manufactured replacement parts. The bullet logo was
probably not used as much, but there is plenty of
evidence that it was used as well.
Obviously nobody knew that these trademarks
were re-applied for and awarded in 1975. If someone
knew, and cared, they could have pointed out that
for many years the trademarks were in wide use by
numerous people and companies.
If this had been brought to the attention of
the Patent and Trademark office - easy to do by
providing ads and sales literature of people and
companies over the years selling "Thompson"
products - would they have denied the trademark?
Annnd, to further muddy the water, there are many
places currently using the trademarks and they are
left alone...Does this not set some type of precedence?
Yet, out of nowhere they jump all over the Crosby
drums...I don't get it...

Bob
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#328 Norm

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 12:12 PM

QUOTE (TNKen @ Mar 23 2007, 10:25 AM)
Has anyone ever done a search in the US Patent and Trademark office for the history of "Thompson", the "Bullet" logo and "Tommy Gun"?

Just curious.

Ken

Didn't Trast (or who ever owned AO of WH, NY) apply and receive the rights to the "bullet logo" in 1984?

Norm

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#329 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 01:03 PM

Norm,

Yes. The bullet logo was not awarded to Trast until July of 1984. I believe only the "Thompson" name and possibly the patents were applied for by Trast in 1975. But the name of the original Auto-Ordnance Corporation was never granted to Trast.

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#330 Norm

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 01:14 PM

QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Mar 23 2007, 01:03 PM)
Norm,

Yes. The bullet logo was not awarded to Trast until July of 1984. I believe only the "Thompson" name and possibly the patents were applied for by Trast in 1975.  But the name of the original Auto-Ordnance Corporation was never granted to Trast.

Was he also awarded the "old" bullet logo as in the picture? huh.gif

user posted image
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#331 1921A

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 01:16 PM

Arthur:

QUOTE
But the name of the original Auto-Ordnance Corporation was never granted to Trast.


That's an interesting statement, but how do you know that? The answer to that question could go along way towards clearing this up.

Trast operated "The Auto Ordnance Corporation" in West Hurly, NY for a quite a few years. If the state of NY has the "articles of incorporation" on file for Trast under that name, it would seem to support the opposite view. Surely somebody checked on that.

Greg Fox
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#332 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 01:35 PM

Norm,

Since the only logo that appeared on West Hurley type Thompson's is the second bullet logo, with the script "Thompson" inside the logo, Trast might not have been granted the original bullet logo trademark. This would stand to reason since Trast could not have applied for the original "AUTO-ORD-CO" name/trademark/ since it remained with the Maguire family after it became defunct in 1944.

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#333 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 01:47 PM

QUOTE (1921A @ Mar 23 2007, 01:16 PM)
Arthur:

QUOTE
But the name of the original Auto-Ordnance Corporation was never granted to Trast.


That's an interesting statement, but how do you know that? The answer to that question could go along way towards clearing this up.

Trast operated "The Auto Ordnance Corporation" in West Hurly, NY for a quite a few years. If the state of NY has the "articles of incorporation" on file for Trast under that name, it would seem to support the opposite view. Surely somebody checked on that.

Greg Fox

NYS Department of State
Division of Corporations
Entity Information

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Selected Entity Name: AUTO ORDNANCE CORPORATION

Selected Entity Status Information Current Entity Name: COMPONENTS CORPORATION OF AMERICA
Initial DOS Filing Date: AUGUST 25, 1916
County: QUEENS
Jurisdiction: NEW YORK
Entity Type: DOMESTIC BUSINESS CORPORATION
Current Entity Status: INACTIVE


AOC stayed with the Maguire family's COMPONENTS CORPORATION OF AMERICA.

Why is their no updated reference to Numrich under the Auto-Ordnance Corporation entity name? Because it ceased to exist in 1944.

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#334 Norm

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 02:26 PM

QUOTE
I remain a sceptic. That's different from a total disbeliever. You keep repeating the claim, but without evidence.


A great man (?) from Tennessee once said "I created the internet." laugh.gif

Now that a statement falls under the "I am a total disbeliever" catagory! slap.gif

Norm blink.gif

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#335 John Jr

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 02:40 PM

QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Mar 22 2007, 08:42 AM)
Mike and John Jr.,

All of the folks discussing this question seem to be enjoying it, and taking it in the spirit of honest and open debate, and trying to learn something new. And the board has been a happy place for a few weeks. Wouldn't it be a nice gesture, to not intentionally upset that by posting insulting graphics and snide comments calculated to, in effect, give the rest of the board members the finger? And it's a question of maturity.

As far as I know, neither of you has been given some sort of veto power over what is discussed on this board. If it doesn't interest you, that's fine. Just don't read it, and there's no great need to tell us how much you dislike it. There are a few things that don't interest me, either. I just skip them; I feel no compulsion to post something snotty, implying that the rest of our members are idiots because their Thompson interests differ from mine. Right?

Wouldn't it be nice if, in the spirit of congeniality, good will, and a desire to get along with others on this board, we would never ever see those pictures of headache man on this board again? Or any substitute intended to do the same thing...John?

I can't think of a single reason anybody could come up with to pretend that the purpose of posting any of those things is something other than intentional insult. I thought we were supposedly leaving that behind. Or so Nick said. If I am misinterpreting any of this, could either of you explain exactly how?

I can't speak for Mike on the matter but I can speak for me.

LIGHTEN UP and get over it. 3 people on this board give a crap about this discussion anyway. You might try to have a sense of humor instead of being a crusty old shit.

You are not going to change the minds of these people because they think they are right. This discussion is pointless and yet people get charged up over nothing.

If you can't enjoy some humor, don't post that we should be posting something that is humorous, get over it.

mad.gif

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#336 1921A

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 03:48 PM

Who really cares but.......

Here is what the state of New York lists in addition to JTT's AOC filed 1916......

QUOTE
But the name of the original Auto-Ordnance Corporation was never granted to Trast. 


New York shows two AOCs registered. The original (inactive) and the West Hurley/Trast venture. Based on this it looks like Gregory Jenks currently owns the AOC name, at least in New York.

Not sure what all this means but it certianly does look like somebody in the West Hurley operation has owned the Auto-Ordnance Corporation name since 1974.


NYS Department of State
Division of Corporations
Entity Information

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Selected Entity Name: AUTO-ORDNANCE CORPORATION

Selected Entity Status Information Current Entity Name: AUTO-ORDNANCE CORPORATION
Initial DOS Filing Date: JUNE 14, 1974
County: ULSTER
Jurisdiction: NEW YORK
Entity Type: DOMESTIC BUSINESS CORPORATION
Current Entity Status: ACTIVE

Selected Entity Address Information DOS Process (Address to which DOS will mail process if accepted on behalf of the entity)
AUTO-ORDNANCE CORPORATION
225 WILLIAMS LANE
WEST HURLEY, NEW YORK, 12491
Chairman or Chief Executive Officer
GREGORY M JENKS
225 WILLIAMS LANE
WEST HURLEY, NEW YORK, 12491
Principal Executive Office
GREGORY M JENKS
225 WILLIAMS LANE
WEST HURLEY, NEW YORK, 12491
Registered Agent
NONE

NOTE: New York State does not issue organizational identification numbers.
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#337 dalbert

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 05:17 PM

PhilOhio,

Ira Trast called me last April. If I were to offer up the details of what he told me, you and Arthur would both simply claim it was just more hype from a key player in this supposed Numrich TSMG manufacturing hoax.

David
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#338 Norm

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 05:25 PM

QUOTE (dalbert @ Mar 23 2007, 05:17 PM)
PhilOhio,

Ira Trast called me last April.  If I were to offer up the details of what he told me, you and Arthur would both simply claim it was just more hype from a key player in this supposed Numrich TSMG manufacturing hoax.

David

Can he supply any documented proof of what he claims?

Like I said earlier, we have a guy from TN that claimed he invented the internet when he was running for president in 2000.

Just because he says he did, it doesn't make it true.

Norm

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#339 frets24

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 06:22 PM

Re: the "headache man" and the volitility of this whole issue...


QUOTE
LIGHTEN UP and get over it. 3 people on this board give a crap about this discussion anyway. You might try to have a sense of humor instead of being a crusty old shit.


Lighten up? no doubt! ...3 people...? maybe.

There's probably alot more than 3 people on the board that care about the issue but, just aren't so emotionally tied to it. I very much enjoy the wealth of info and expertise offered by all who post on this topic. Also the "intrigue" that seems to envelope the later thompson years. In many ways it gives the WH's some sort of "dark" history themselves...somewhat akin to TSMGs that may have actually been used by or againt a gangster or like some long hidden bastard child of a well known figure that suddenly surfaces in the limelight.

I find the banter informative and enlightening, though sometimes very heavy and tedious...It's usually at those times the headache man pops up or some other light diversion or comment and, for me anyway, it just brings me back round to the realization that this whole thing is just a diversion...something that I enjoy but isn't going to appreciably further me in my business or personal life. Besides I've seriously considered making him (H.A. man) into a T Shirt to wear around the house or to work sometime...Haven't yet though...Don't know if it's Mike's property or not. Usually to my eye it doesn't seem to be malicious but then I'm not the person who seems to be the "target"...Sometimes thought or spoken humourous interjection just doen't translate to print very well.

It appears that the Westies are going to remain an enigma...the "DNA results" have come back inconclusive for many. What their true bloodline is doesn't really matter in the market. Their value is what the market has set it to be and that is based more on the quality of the manufacturing and the absence of prohibition era or war era history. Bloodline "proof positive" would likely affect $$$ value in no way shape or form.

Lastly..With over 11,000 views, the evidence would suggest that a WHOLE lot more than 3 people care about this topic! (and i would bet that most are having fun with it and not reading to much vitriol into the whole thing) JMHO wink.gif
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#340 dalbert

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 06:30 PM

QUOTE (Norm @ Mar 23 2007, 05:25 PM)
QUOTE (dalbert @ Mar 23 2007, 05:17 PM)
PhilOhio,

Ira Trast called me last April.  If I were to offer up the details of what he told me, you and Arthur would both simply claim it was just more hype from a key player in this supposed Numrich TSMG manufacturing hoax.

David

Can he supply any documented proof of what he claims?

Like I said earlier, we have a guy from TN that claimed he invented the internet when he was running for president in 2000.

Just because he says he did, it doesn't make it true.

Norm

Norm seems to want to discredit something prior to even knowing what it is.

I've put a lot of effort into researching the TSMG, and its history is rewarding and vast. I usually enjoy sharing my thoughts and finds with other Thompson enthusiasts, including those who disagree with the opinions I derive. Lately, posting about such things has not seemed worth the time, and I need to spend it on other projects.

I'm going to take leave of the "Replica" subject for a while, and posting on this board for the time being. Research continues, and there's a bunch of Thompson history still out there...

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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