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#361 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 09:29 PM

TD.
Most everyone you know understands how Numrich took it upon himself to claim ownership of all things Thompson? Now that's funny!

Now you want to use the Bearse article, the very one you championed as incontrovertible proof that Numrich was an integral part of the chain of AOC ownership, as an ala cart menu to satisfy your particular craving for Numrich AOC succession. Anything on the Speisekarte you find unpalatable, such as the fact that both Bearse and Numrich are in agreement that NAC never manufactured any 1921/28 or M1/M1A1 TSMG's, you send back to the kitchen.

As far as George Numrich and the Thompson are concerned, we all have to be Donninger to figure out if George could prove ownership of the rights to all things Thompson.

"As the gun Digest goes to press, word has reached us that Numrich has designed, but is not in production, a semi-auto Thompson."

A. You would like to interpret a phrase that leaves no room for interpretation. The Gun Digest editor did not contact Numrich. Not unless we have now corrupted the English language to change "word reached us" to "after we inquired." There was nothing active about the editor's obiter dictum.

But one does not have to be Kreskin to figure out it was George, or one of his minions, who made sure this information made it into the article.


Did you think it was a carrier pigeon that brought forth this message? Who the Hell else knew the info contained in this article besides Bearse, the editor and Numrich? Since Bearse and the editor didn't know about Numrich's attempt to enter the semi-auto Thompson design, by process of elimination, George is the only possible source for this "word."


B. No where does it say that ATF approved any Numrich designs in this article.

C. The publication's editor clearly makes the point that after "word " reached them, "Numrich states he holds all the patents, trademarks, etc..." Numrich had all the time in the world to make his pitch for rightful owner of all things Thompson, and his also ran semi-auto design, during the extended period he spent with Bearse. Why the burr under Numrich's saddle at this juncture? Obviously because he did not like the impression in Bearse's article that true gun manufacturers could beat him to a semi-auto Thompson. So was Bearse the catalyst for Numrich's last minute plea? Does it matter? The fact is George made a special effort to get this "word" out before the article went to press.

Why would I want to contradict Nelson? He was never on board the Numrich chain of succession train. As far as contradicting Numrich, I have presented as much evidence that George did not buy anything other than crates as he ever presented to the contrary.




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#362 TD.

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Posted 06 April 2007 - 07:02 AM

Arthur,
There is nothing funning about how the Thompson moved from one party to another after being sold by Maguire Industries. Incontrovertible proof - again, these are your words, not mine. I am not even making an argument about Thompson succession; I am just stating facts. If I was making an argument, I doubt I would use the Bearse article.

I find this fact much more compelling than George Numrich's statement of ownership: Maguire sold everything related to the Thompson Submachine Gun. Two and a half years later, Numrich acquired everything Maguire had sold related to the Thompson Submachine Gun. Of course, this fact also supports George Numrich's claim of ownership. The Thompson business was but a small part of George Numrich's total operation. Years after he purchased the Thompson, he and his Vice-President, Ira Trast, decided to expand the Thompson business. They created a new corporation and named it the Auto-Ordnance Corporation, West Hurley, New York. The name Auto-Ordnance had been available for many years. They also transferred all the Thompson assets to this new corporation. This is when I believe Numrich and Trast discovered that Trademarks need to be renewed every so often (17 years?) and they promptly re-registered the Thompson bullet logo Trademark.

There is much more to this story. Bill Helmer did just enough research on this area to point us in the right direction. I only use the Bearse article with Numrich's statement of ownership to see if anyone can present any evidence that contradicts Numrich's direct claims. Thus far, no one has presented anything that shows Numrich was not an owner in possession of the Thompson business for a great many years. General Thompson's dream did not end in 1944 when the last of the M1A1 Thompson's came off the production line. It has continued on...and now rests in the hands of Kahr Arms.

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#363 Guest_hardrede_*

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Posted 06 April 2007 - 09:21 PM

That's funny Ron, my GMC was assembled at the Flint Plant. (Next to I-75)

Problem is, the aluminum wheels are clearly marked "Hungary!"

Maybe we have a "Lend-Lease" jobs program. Or, this might be the "New" Marshall Plan!

Enjoy the weather out there. It was 22 this morning, Wind Chill about 10, and there is over 2 inches of new snow covering the flowers that came up last week.

Gotta Love that Lake Michigan!!!




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#364 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 02:29 PM

There may be some (TD, dalbert, Trast, Moon, etc) who will not embrace Doug Richardson's new website that accurately represents the historical truth behind the Thompson name and the original AOC business, but at least those interested can now easily find the facts at:

http://www.auto-ordn...orporation.com/

"The name “Auto-Ordnance Corporation”, which had been abandoned in 1944, was re-registered in New York on June 14, 1974 by Numrich Arms Corp. of West Hurley, New York. The new “Auto-Ordnance Corp.” had no connection with nor was it a successor in interest to the original Auto-Ordnance Corporation of Thompson, Ryan, Maguire, and “Tommy Gun” fame although its literature, catalogs, trademarks, and “Thompson” gun patterned to look like the original Thompson fools consumers into believing otherwise. Kahr Arms purchased the new “Auto-Ordnance Corp.” from Numrich Arms in 1998, apparently believing that they were actually buying the original Auto-Ordnance Corp., not the one created by Numrich Arms." D.R.

Now all D.R. has to do is apply the same scholarly approach to accurately identify his "Colt Navy" buttstocks.
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#365 dalbert

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 09:38 PM

QUOTE (Norm @ Jul 24 2008, 10:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh My God! ohmy.gif It's....



Norm,

As per your request...

David
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#366 Norm

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 10:20 PM

laugh.gif ohmy.gif huh.gif
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#367 Bill in VA

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 11:53 AM

So did we ever figure out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
huh.gif
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#368 Zamm

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 05:49 PM

Good Lord!
It's back!
Z
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#369 Norm

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 06:00 PM

QUOTE (Zamm @ Jul 25 2008, 05:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Good Lord!
It's back!
Z


Zamm! Where have you been- first post I've seen from you in months! biggrin.gif
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#370 Zamm

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 08:48 AM

"Zamm! Where have you been- first post I've seen from you in months! biggrin.gif"

Hey Norm and all, Just been busy keeping the Art World safe for gazillionaires!
Can't wait to read Tom's piece.
Best, Z




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#371 dalbert

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 07:23 PM

So, a lot of the blanks are finally getting filled in for those who doubt that Thompson succession extends from 1916 to the present day. If you are still skeptical after reading Tom Davis' Kilgore article in the September 2008 issue of Small Arms Review magazine, I would encourage you to attend Tracie's Show and Shoot in a few weeks in Ohio. The other part of the picture that was not included in the SAR article will be covered at that time, and its details are extraordinary.

Any more comments on the Kilgore and the Thompson article?

Willis is the thread that weaves through it all, from 1939 to 1951.

Helmer wrote the SECOND book on the Thompson Submachine Gun.

Great job, Tom! Firepower is Peace Power!

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com



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#372 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 01:35 PM

QUOTE (dalbert @ Jul 31 2008, 08:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So, a lot of the blanks are finally getting filled in for those who doubt that Thompson succession extends from 1916 to the present day. If you are still skeptical after reading Tom Davis' Kilgore article in the September 2008 issue of Small Arms Review magazine, I would encourage you to attend Tracie's Show and Shoot in a few weeks in Ohio. The other part of the picture that was not included in the SAR article will be covered at that time, and its details are extraordinary.

Any more comments on the Kilgore and the Thompson article?

Willis is the thread that weaves through it all, from 1939 to 1951.

Helmer wrote the SECOND book on the Thompson Submachine Gun.

Great job, Tom! Firepower is Peace Power!

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com


Dave & TD,

Since SAR is seemingly is no longer available from magazine/book stores, or firearm stores, which leaves a subscription as the only access to SAR, and the current issue, apparently, has not arrived yet to subscribers, why not spell out just what this "new" info is and how it changes the complexion of the AOC ending in 1944?

All this breathless hyperbole makes for good PR for SAR & Hill, I guess, but it doesn't really advance your and TD's argument without providing the specifics. I remember when you graciously provided those pictures of Numrich's old catalogs supposedly showing his machine shop activity, yet they were actually lifted from Maguire's AOC publicity from the early 1940's.

How about a little actual info posted on a TSMG info board to persuade the Doubting Thomas hoards?

Edited by Arthur Fliegenheimer, 01 August 2008 - 01:37 PM.

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#373 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 03:12 PM

QUOTE (Z3BigDaddy @ Aug 1 2008, 03:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Aug 1 2008, 11:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (dalbert @ Jul 31 2008, 08:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So, a lot of the blanks are finally getting filled in for those who doubt that Thompson succession extends from 1916 to the present day. If you are still skeptical after reading Tom Davis' Kilgore article in the September 2008 issue of Small Arms Review magazine, I would encourage you to attend Tracie's Show and Shoot in a few weeks in Ohio. The other part of the picture that was not included in the SAR article will be covered at that time, and its details are extraordinary.

Any more comments on the Kilgore and the Thompson article?

Willis is the thread that weaves through it all, from 1939 to 1951.

Helmer wrote the SECOND book on the Thompson Submachine Gun.

Great job, Tom! Firepower is Peace Power!

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com


Dave & TD,

Since SAR is seemingly is no longer available from magazine/book stores, or firearm stores, which leaves a subscription as the only access to SAR, and the current issue, apparently, has not arrived yet to subscribers, why not spell out just what this "new" info is and how it changes the complexion of the AOC ending in 1944?

All this breathless hyperbole makes for good PR for SAR & Hill, I guess, but it doesn't really advance your and TD's argument without providing the specifics. I remember when you graciously provided those pictures of Numrich's old catalogs supposedly showing his machine shop activity, yet they were actually lifted from Maguire's AOC publicity from the early 1940's.

How about a little actual info posted on a TSMG info board to persuade the Doubting Thomas hoards?



I just bought two copies of last months with Davids article in it at my local News and Smokes... JFYI

Oh and the owner said this months should be in today... I need to go check....


When you pick-up your September issue, perhaps you can share this info for those less fortunate when it comes to SAR availability?
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#374 TD.

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 05:21 PM

The September issue of Small Arms Review is available at:

Long Mountain Outfitters
631 N. Stephanie St #560
Henderson, NV 89014
(702) 564-0948



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#375 Mike Hammer

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 07:29 PM

Z, you might have a point, he owns at least one Colt Thompson and he won't shell out a fews samolas to read the article. Well, maybe he just can't make it down to the corner newsie, can't fault him there. Perhaps someone could help Artie out and just copy and paste the article here for him and everyone else to read. This thread just keeps on going.....and going..........

Mike Hammer
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#376 reconbob

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 07:57 PM

C'mon guys. This is essentially a roundtable discussion. You don't send
someone away from the table to go buy what you can tell them now.
Its not necessary to provide the entire article word for word, but at least the
basics would be appropriate in this discussion.
Arthur has "been there" many a time swiftly posting info and photos when
people are trying to identify parts. Suppose his (or anyones) response would
have been: "Oh, trying to identify a M1921 buttstock slide? Well, go buy a
Colt and see for yourself."

Bob
PS - Is this the most viewed thread? 14,444 and counting...

Edited by reconbob, 01 August 2008 - 08:01 PM.

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#377 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 08:44 PM

QUOTE (Z3BigDaddy @ Aug 1 2008, 09:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (reconbob @ Aug 1 2008, 05:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
C'mon guys. This is essentially a roundtable discussion. You don't send
someone away from the table to go buy what you can tell them now.
Its not necessary to provide the entire article word for word, but at least the
basics would be appropriate in this discussion.
Arthur has "been there" many a time swiftly posting info and photos when
people are trying to identify parts. Suppose his (or anyones) response would
have been: "Oh, trying to identify a M1921 buttstock slide? Well, go buy a
Colt and see for yourself."

Bob


Ain't the point Bob.... I give FREE info out too... But I wouldn't ask people to post pages of Franks books just cuz I'm to cheap to buy one... How bout you ship me one of your receivers so I can give it to my shop guy to copy it or just send the dimensions and a little how to guide...... I'll pay the shipping....

BTW I offered him one FREE of charge!

"Send me a mailing addy and I'll buy you a copy ya cheap bastid...."


Oh and I did buy a Colt... Didn't make me any smarter....


Z3,

It didn't make you any less grandiloquent either. But as I stated, lately there is zero availability of the SAR in this area. I didn't ask for a verbatim account, just the essential points of TD's article that is supposed to reveal previously unknown info about the lineage of the TSMG.

TD has been paid for article. It already went to press and has been released to the public. What does "paper copyright material" have to do with a brief synopsis of TD's article? If you feel you are not adept at synopsising, that's fine. Perhaps TD could reveal just the hi points?

Thanks to reconbob for his rational reply regarding a non recondite request.

Edited by Arthur Fliegenheimer, 01 August 2008 - 08:47 PM.

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#378 reconbob

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 09:57 PM

If TD wrote 1500 words, 50-75 words would give the gist of whatever it is thats
so interesting and pertinent to this thread. Seems to me a little info would send people
out to by the magazine. People call me every day for info and advice - how do you
remove a barrel, what model Thompson parts set do they have, how do you get the
rear sight off, etc. etc. And I don't tell them to give me their credit card number before
I answer.
So we can agree to disagree, but this has become petty...

Bob

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#379 dalbert

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 02:40 AM

QUOTE (reconbob @ Aug 1 2008, 08:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
C'mon guys. This is essentially a roundtable discussion. You don't send
someone away from the table to go buy what you can tell them now.
Its not necessary to provide the entire article word for word, but at least the
basics would be appropriate in this discussion.
Arthur has "been there" many a time swiftly posting info and photos when
people are trying to identify parts. Suppose his (or anyones) response would
have been: "Oh, trying to identify a M1921 buttstock slide? Well, go buy a
Colt and see for yourself."

Bob
PS - Is this the most viewed thread? 14,444 and counting...


Reconbob and Everyone,

It's not too much to ask someone to go buy the magazine. It may not be convenient to purchase one locally, but I bet anyone on the board could have one in hand within a week by contacting the publisher. Put some effort into it. Click a few keys. If that doesn't work for you, I would suggest trying "Books-A-Million," who stocks the magazine at a location near me, and you might find one near you. I have also purchased it at Barnes and Noble in the past.

TD spent 2 years writing the article, and it is one of the longest I have seen SAR publish. I believe the draft was 7000 words, and the article runs 8 pages in the magazine. Extensive research was performed to produce it, and there is much new information to digest. This is an outstanding effort, and one that is hard to match in terms of time spent, and avenues explored and exhausted. The work produced significant results. Some will probably continue to challenge the results, for whatever reason, but such efforts will be be transparent to most.

Even though a summary will not do it justice, I will say this about the article:

It is the story of the Kilgore Manufacturing Company, and their acquisition of the Thompson Submachine Gun. Undisputable physical evidence is provided of Kilgore's plans to manufacture and market the M1A1 Thompson, as well as utilize the Thompson logo. Accounts are provided from Kilgore employees regarding the entire effort, including first hand details of the setup. It is explained why Kilgore's manufacturing and marketing plans suddenly froze in their tracks, an account which involves multiple deaths, and subsequent congressional hearings. The importance of Frederick Willis, who as I mentioned before, is the thread that runs through it all, is discussed in some detail. Willis was passionate about the TSMG, and its future in various forms. Also, the issue of the Egyptian Thompson is put to rest.

You should get the magazine to read the details. A subscription is recommended.

And yes, this is the most viewed thread.

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com


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#380 reconbob

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 07:40 AM

I do have a subscription and I'm looking forward to getting the Sept issue. You have
peaked my interest with your comment about the Egyptian Thompson. Years ago Sarco
brought in batch of M1/M1A1 Thompson parts sets and the markings on the trigger frames
were in arabic or some other cyrillic alphabet. It did not look like the original markings
had been ground off or overstamped. The word at the time was that they were Turkish.
Wish I had saved one...

Bob
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