74 replies to this topic

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

QUOTE (amafrank @ Jan 28 2006, 06:53 PM)

AF, Bowers didn't sound to me like he was scared of Trast. He sounded proud of his guns and told me the reason he started the project was because the westies were so bad. I think the fact he made them pissed off trast and maybe Trast helped nudge ATF into disallowing the finished receivers that weren't assembled. Frank

Thank you for the first hand account of Bowers run in with Trast. Hey, I am the last one to fault him for not taking the whole shebang to court. I was just rhapsodizing on what might have been. I do applaud him for making a superior product and I think you are on to something about collusion between Trast and ATF about disqualifying those bare receivers.

Had Trast encountered any competition back in the mid 1970's, he would have either ceased production of his replica, or been forced to live up to the name stamped on their receivers. The name they coerced others into believing was their exclusive property.

Having been to the West Hurley "factory" back in late 1970's, I doubt if Trast had the coin to actually do anything but acquiesce to an out of court settlement allowing, at the least, a franchise to interested manufacturers.

[TD.]

…what might have been…I think…Had Trast…I doubt if…

Don’t you think it is time to start accepting some of what actually happened as Auto-Ordnance and the Thompson Submachine Gun moved from General Thompson, to Russell Maguire, to Kilgore Manufacturing, to Fredrick Willis, to George Numrich. to Ira Trast, and to Kahr Arms. Yes, it “might have been" different if (fill in the blank), but it wasn’t, so let’s get on with enjoying this fine firearm - and all the great history behind it

Phil - please keep dreaming

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

TD,

Phil's dream has a lot more chance for fruition than your "unbroken line" dream. Your devotion to George is commendable, but even though most children give up the Ghost on Santa Claus, some passible children continue into adulthood to favor the irresistible fairy tale rather than admit being hoaxed.

[TD.]

Arthur,
I wish it were so. I would gladly trade the unbroken line of succession on the Thompson Submachine Gun for repeal of the 1986 machine gun ban - and I believe the General would join me for that one! But for now we are just struck with the truth.

For easy reading with pictures, I suggest reviewing your copy of "On the Side of Law and Order" Exhibit Catalog designed by the Thompson Collectors Association expressly for the Thompson display at the NRA National Firearms Museum in 2004/2005. It starts with the Blish pistol and ends with Kahr Arms

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Actually that NRA "On The Side Of Law & Order" brochure ends with a "Thompson look alike Airsoft pellet gun." The brochure is sort of the politically correct periodical that attempts to be all inclusive at the expense of easily documented historical evidence. Or in Numrich/Trast case, the lack of any evidence.

Back in 1965, I had a black plastic 1928 water submachine gun with all the Thompson and Auto Ordnance names emblazoned on it. I feel slighted that the NRA brochure left it out. Why draw the line at water as a projectile? That Thompson squirt gun actually fired unlike the Kahr versions.

It's great that all full auto WH's have C&R status. All pre 1986 mg's and smg's should have that rating. ATF doesn't make a distinction between replicas and licensed versions, as long as the replicas were not made 50 years ago at the time the originals were being made.

[Bounty1]

but the way I understand it is that if it is C&R eligiable you do not have to file travel papers to take it out of state ? Is that correct ???

OK, let me see if I can get this straight.....The WH 1928's are now C&R's, but in order to take it over state lines w/o the paperwork, you have to have a C&R license also, right?

I looked into getting a C&R but was put off by having to allow the BATFE to have unfettered access to all my medical records. None of their f*****' business as far as I'm concerned as long as a NICS check comes back OK. I'd rather protect the little that's left of my privacy than having the jackboots going on a fishing expedition.

[amafrank]

You are correct on the taking machineguns out of state deal there. If you have a C&R license (or any FFL for that matter) than you can take C&R firearms over state lines with no 5320.20 filed. If you have an FFL you can take any firearms which you are licensed to deal in over state lines with no 5320.20 filed. As an added bonus the C&R license allows you to receive C&R firearms of all types directly without the need for an intermediate dealer for interstate transfer. This means MG's and DD's too. An FFL will do this same thing and allow you to deal as well.

As to the details of getting the C&R or FFL, you have to decide if the lack of travel paperwork is worth the trouble of getting the FFL.

Sometimes the choices are tough.

good luck

Frank

[John Jr]

Every single transferable MG should be on the C&R list, they are all rare.


ARTY IS A COLT WHORE TROLL.

[TD.]

QUOTE

The brochure is sort of the politically correct periodical that attempts....

Arthur,
You gave yourself away on this one. Since you know what was in the minds of the creators of this document, we now know you were one of the authors. It is a real shame you and your co-writers went to all the trouble to be politically correct - and ended up reporting the simple truth. Isn't the truth so simple to report! (I feel like I may have inspired the picture of NAC 17 given all our posts on the NAC Thompsons) My congratulations on a story well done. I am off to the skeet club

[ClevelandShooter]

Yo Arty. Earlier on you made reference to Ohio Ordnance. Would you please clarify that?
Inquisitive minds want to know???
Bill Out

[amafrank]

Back on the orginal subject here.....

I had a look at the Philly Ord M1A1 yesterday and it does not say thompson on the receiver either. It is marked ( from my lousy memory anyway)...

Submachine Gun
Caliber .45 M1A1

With the other side saying:

Philidelphia Ordnance
Oreland, PA

I'll take some pics and post them if I can get Mike to help me out.

It would indeed be a good thing to find that all the tommies of all stripes are going to be considered C&R. It would be a step toward the recognition that all registered MG's should be C&R.
Frank

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

According to ATF, they wouldn't care if the Philly Ord receiver had "Thompson stamped on the receiver. or was listed on the Form 3/4 as a "Thompson," since all they pay attention to are the serial numbers. But if they are now using the "Model 1928" as a guide to confirm C&R status, since the M1/M1A1 is already Kosher, then I imagine they would refer to the registry to find that receiver's serial number and go from there.

Has anyone that owns one of these receivers contacted ATF to get the ball rolling on why these "Thompson's" would not qualify for the new ATF C&R edict since they meet the same standard of the third 27 CFR 178.11 category that ATF uses for the WH inclusion?

[amafrank]

Well Art,
If I can find the citation in writing so I can reference that I will contact ATF myself. Does anyone have the actual written statement that says all the thompsons have been added to the list??? The note from the TCA is great but I need the real mc coy from the horses mouth.
Thanks
Frank

[Tman]

QUOTE (John Jr @ Jan 29 2006, 12:48 PM)

Every single transferable MG should be on the C&R list, they are all rare.

[v188]

I went to the TCA website, and printed a copy of the letter from FTB. It's a two page letter and it plainly states that ALL Thompsons ARE C&R.

It looks like TCA wanted all West Hurley's listed as C&R, and FTB took it a step further and made every Thompson C&R.

I was going to send a letter to ATF with my specific SN, since it's a M1 reweld. But after reading (and printing it out, putting it in my gun bag) it, I'm not sending a letter.

I now have a re-weld Savage C&R!

[Mike Hammer]

V188: Yes the letter does say "All Fully Transferable Thompson sub-machine guns registered on or before May 19, 1986"....BUT! Miss. Troy's letter of consideration for C&R status specifically specifies ONLY "Model 1928 Thompson submacineguns, (all calibers, including .45 and .22) MANUFACTURED IN THE 1970'S AND 1980'S BY THE AUTO ORDNANCE CORPORATION, WEST HURLEY, NEW YORK"

I belive that Sterling Nixon, Chief of the Firearms Technology Branch has interpreted that ONLY the '28 Thompsons produced by West Hurley in the 70's and 80's now stand as equally with respect as C&R's, as do the Colt, Savage, Bridgeport, and West Hurley M1' Thompsons.

I have interpreted this letter to mean that any other pre '86 receivers that were used on "Thompson parts kits"to make a working smgun....guns NOT made by West Hurley Auto Ordnance... are NOT included in this act.

I would advise anyone who has a mfg. receiver (not WH), on a Thompson parts kit to write a letter for further clarification, or confirmation on this matter.

Mike Hammer

[mgdoc8307]

Anybody got a link to the TCA showing a copy of the letter describing C&R status of all West Hurley 1928's? Thanks.

[Roland, Headless Thompson Gunner]

Try this:

http://home.comcast....oval-Page-1.jpg

http://home.comcast....oval-Page-2.jpg

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

What is that, Cyrillic or Sumerian? The letter posted on TCA is illegible. Someone with an actual newsletter might want to perform a clear scan and post it here.

[Roland, Headless Thompson Gunner]

They recommend you save it and then enlarge it. My browser just lets me select the enlarge icon and its fully readiable.

Here Arty maybe you won't need your glasses.

Think if I offered these on eBay I could get dalbert to buy them?