Posted 09 February 2006 - 12:02 PM
Posted 09 February 2006 - 12:19 PM
I'll take my soap box & go home now.
P.S. Any body on this forum from Utah?
Posted 09 February 2006 - 02:16 PM
Welcome. The distinctions between the pre 1945 manufactured Thompson's and the post 1944 45 smg's with the Thompson name are valid, but they are not meant to demean, denounce, besmirch, or condemn the owner's of these versions. It has nothing to do with elitism, snobbery or snottiness, but rather to remonstrate to those novices who might be laboring under a misapprehension as perpetrated by Numrich/Trast.
The last bona fide Jeep was made in 1983 when the CJ5 ceased production. But to draw a parallel between the Thompson variants of post 1944 with the 1960's Ford Mustang and the millennium Mustangs is at best superficial and at worst specious. While Ford is the manufacturer of the Mustang model in either decade, you can not make the same claim with the Auto-Ordnance Corporation of 1944 and the one that set up shop in West Hurley, New York in 1975.
While Ford's reputation was on the line when they made their updated version of the Mustang, Trast felt no such obligation when he produced what is neither a 70's updated version of the !921/28 TSMG, or an attempt to adhere to the same quality and craftsmanship guidelines of the genuine article.
Posted 09 February 2006 - 02:47 PM
Thank you for the response, and for the clarification. Your analogies are helpful, and I have, through this forum, become much more educated on the history and evolution of the Thompson. I am under no delusions that my "Kahr'ed" Thompson is in any way an improved evolution of the originals. It is my "Thompson" though, and for now, as close as I can get to a "real" Thompson. I also believe that while it is a far cry from the original Colts in workmanship and functioning, it is helping to keep the name, and enthusiasim alive for another generation of Thompson enthusiasts, "Semi-alive" anyway. I can understand the belief of "real" Thompson owners that thier firearms are superior, and I agree. I struggle to understand the bias against the Kahr "Thompson". I have learned much from you, and others on this board about the differences in each era's Thompsons. For that, I thank you.
Posted 09 February 2006 - 05:18 PM
I found your statement, "The last bona fide Jeep was made in 1983 when the CJ5 ceased production" intriguing...very similar to your stance on Thompson succession.
Posted 09 February 2006 - 05:35 PM
While my Jeep analogy is really a personal opinion, although shared by other enthusiasts, the Thompson topic is not speculative nor subjective, but rather well documented and accepted truth by authors of firearm books and periodicals.
Posted 09 February 2006 - 06:23 PM
Posted 09 February 2006 - 07:15 PM
First, a little history on the subject: For the sake of brevity, I am going to omit the early Warner & Swasey days in Cleveland, Ohio and the production of the Model 1921 Thompson by Colt Patent Firearms MFG CO. I will start the journey with the Auto-Ordnance Corporation under President Russell Maguire, the time when all the WWII Thompsons we have come to enjoy were manufactured by Auto-Ordnance and Savage Arms. In March 1944, the Auto-Ordnance Corporation under Russell Maguire was re-organized and a new parent company emerged named Maguire Industries, Inc. All assets pertaining to the Thompson Submachine gun became a division of the parent company; this division was titled the Auto-Ordnance Division of Maguire Industries. The assets of this division were placed in storage and sat dormant for the next few years. In 1949, Kilgore Manufacturing, Westerville, Ohio, paid $385,00 to McGuire Industries for all the remaining assets of what now had become the Auto-Ordnance Division of Maguire Industries. Kilgore had the intention to resale the now former Auto-Ordnance Division to the Egyptian government because officials at Kilgore thought the Egyptian government wanted to manufacture the Thompson Submachine gun. This deal was done with future manufacturing as the stated pretext.
This is where you have to make your decision about the continuing lineage of the Thompson Submachine Gun. I submit that even today $385,000 is a lot of money; imagine what it represented in 1949. I think is ridiculous to think Kilgore paid that type of money for a few crates of parts and old machinery? Given the money involved, I submit the legal department of one of these parties drafted a contract of sale. I expect it was a very simple contract assigning all rights to the Thompson Submachine Gun from McGuire Industries to Kilgore Manufacturing. To take it one step further and again given the amount of money involved, I am sure Kilgore would have expected the Egyptian government to have performed some type of due diligence prior to making any future deal so clear title and rights would have been important issue to Kilgore. In addition, I have never heard anywhere that McGuire Industries retained any rights to the Thompson Submachine Gun or ever claimed any future rights to the Thompson Submachine Gun. If you can make this link between Maguire Industries and Kilgore Manufacturing, the rest of the story is very easy to follow.
Unfortunately for Kilgore, the deal with the Egyptian government never came to pass. Kilgore then sold all the assets of the Auto-Ordnance Division of Maguire Industries to former Auto-Ordnance Corporation Executive Fredrick Willis at a loss. In a nutshell, Willis got what Kilgore purchased. Willis was in or had been in the gun business. Willis certainly would have done some due diligence to know exactly what he purchased. In October 1951, George Numrich purchased the former Auto-Ordnance Division of Maguire Industries from Willis. Like McGuire Industries above, there is no indication that Kilgore or Willis would have wanted to or did retain any rights to the Thompson Submachine Gun when it left their respective hands. It is also well known that George Numrich knew how to conduct business.
The lineage from Cleveland, Ohio to West Hurley, New York is what it is - intact. I suggest anyone with additional interest see an article by Ray Bearse, titled, The Thompson Submachine Gun, Weapon of War and Peace, published in the 1967 edition of Gun Digest. At the end of the story, George Numrich in a discussion concerning the development of a new semi-auto Thompson stated, to wit: “Numrich states that, since his company holds the patents, trademarks, etc. on the Thompson SMG, it is doubtful if any other company could produce a Thompson of any kind.” What is important about this 1967 date is none of the questions heard now days were an issue; Colt Thompsons were selling for under a $1000 and the West Hurley Thompsons we see and own today were just a dream. In addition, I have never heard anything that indicated George Numrich was anything other than an honest businessman. Given George Numrich’s statement back in 1967, and many other noted references that say the same thing that have been recorded over the years, I think it is safe to assume he acquired the total assets of the former Auto-Ordnance Division of Maguire Industries.
Now you have a much more complete picture of how the lineage of the Thompson Submachine Gun came to pass. It really doesn't make any difference how some authors describe a West Hurley Thompson. We are not talking quality; we are talking ownership of the Thompson Submachine Gun and the continuing lineage of General Thompson's dream. Numrich Arms Corporation never owned or claimed ownership of the Auto-Ordnance Corporation, New York, New York. What they did purchase, several owners down the chain, was the Auto-Ordnance Division of McGuire Industries, Inc. and all rights to the Thompson Submachine Gun. The Auto-Ordnance Corporation, New York, New York discarded the name Auto-Ordnance Corporation and became McGuire Industries, Incorporated. Don’t get hooked into the trap of following the corporation names. Corporation names and re-organizations are easily done. Always follow the business enterprise and rights – this will lead you to the right place.
Jeeps....ah, never mind
Posted 09 February 2006 - 07:42 PM
Posted 09 February 2006 - 08:15 PM
You erroneously suggested that ATF was using the first C&R category for WH inclusion and now, despite the response in the ATF letter that all 1928 "Thompson's" now qualify for C&R, you superimpose your own interpretation again. ATF is not the arbiter and makes no claims either way as to whether WH's are replicas/reproductions made in the last 30 years.
You really need to revise your cut and paste job since William J. Helmer has subsequently undermined the basis of your contentions.
If Maguire sold Kilgore the exact same company that produced the Thompson why would Helmer regard the Colt/Savage/AO receiver Auto Ordnance markings with the "original" disclaimer appellation giving way to the obvious implication that Numrich/Trask's "Auto Ordnance Corporation" markings are indeed not sanctioned or authorized by merely purchasing a bunch of crates.
Could you please refer me to this document that you use as documentation that stipulates incontrovertibly that Maguire sold Kilgore all names, trademarks and patents? Where did you find it? Helmer would probably be very grateful since he never saw it either and could only determine that Maguire sold crates.
In fact, as far as the $385,000 sale figure, Helmer can only go so far as to say it was the "reported" price. Helmer was contacted by G.I. Jive personally and he confirmed to G.I. Jive that he never saw this bill of sale. Helmer also never saw the documents that Numich says gave him any rights other than a bunch of crates with machinery, parts, and complete TSMG's.
Helmer also says that Numrich picked up only the "crated" assets of Auto Ordnance. Unless Maguire/Kilgore/Willis slipped into those crates legal papers entitling the bearer of the crates rights to Thompson names, patents, and logos of "The Auto Ordnance Corporation Of New York, U.S.A." then there is a huge leap in faith that Trast ever had the legal right to use the full "Auto Ordnance Corporation" name with his city tacked on the end anymore than any other manufacturer of a "Thompson" type of firearm that wanted to place their own town or city as the suffix.
This is exactly the point that Doug Richardson makes with such authority and logic.
Since the Maguire family continued to own the name Auto-Ordnance Corporation as late as 1982, and Maguire disbanded the "Auto-Ordnance Division of Maguire Industries" in 1944, and renamed it "Ordnance Division," then he could not have sold the name "Auto Ordnance Corporation" to Willis.
Also, we now know that Numrich admitted that he had no idea what was in the crates since he never looked inside them back in 1951. We also do not know what he paid Kilgore. We also do not know what Kilgore sold Numrich other than crates.
But we do know that in 1975, 31 years since the last legit TSMG was manufactured, Trast, Numrich's employee, was the first in this long line of undocumented deals to ever make from scratch a .45 smg stamped with the "Thompson" name, bullet logo, and patents.
Posted 09 February 2006 - 08:41 PM
Posted 09 February 2006 - 08:53 PM
So whomever owns the magical Blish pistol is the rightful heir to the Thompson legacy? I guess then the "Private Collector," as referred to by the NRM in the photo credit as the loaner of said pistol, is the only one allowed to manufacture Thompson's. This will be news to Kahr.
If John T. was buried with the Blish pistol in 1940, would that then mean Maguire was not authorized to make Thompson's? While your thesis is overall flawed, this particular reference is weaker than 3.2 beer.
The booklet also makes no distinction between the electric powered Marui toy Thompson, a rubber Hollywood prop Thompson, a MGC non-gun Thompson and any other replica/reproduction/facsimile sporting the Thompson name.
Posted 09 February 2006 - 09:21 PM
Oh, I want to hear this one!
Posted 09 February 2006 - 10:09 PM
ATF has never cared what the transferor writes in the manufacturer box, or type of firearm box on a Form 3/4/10. They only care primarily about the serial number, then caliber, and barrel length. As far as the type of NFA item and model, they seem indifferent to whether that box says "smg," " machine gun," "Thompson," ".45 smg," or "1921," "Navy," "1928," "1921/28 Navy," etc.
By this logic, the reason why all post 1944 "Thompson's," 30 years old up til 1986, should be considered C&R by ATF is self-evident since it is a little late in the game for them to differentiate what a Thompson is now. Since there were no original, genuine Thompson's manufactured after 1944 when Auto Ordnance Corporation ceased to exist as a firearms entity, all reproduction/replica/facsimile .45 smg utilizing the Thompson design, with or without the name "Thompson" on the receiver, are equally valid as curios or relics by virtue of their paucity of numbers and that ATF never gave a shit about the significance of the name "Thompson" other than it is a NFA item.
Posted 09 February 2006 - 10:23 PM
|Since there were no original, genuine Thompson's manufactured after 1944...|
consult4745 and must, I hope you are enjoying the dialog. And yes, the West Hurley Thompsons are as much a Thompson as the first 15000 that were manufactured by Colt. No, the quality is not the same - but they are another generation of Thompsons whose beginings go all the way back to 1916 in Cleveland, Ohio. Hopefully, the line of sucession will never end!
Posted 09 February 2006 - 10:52 PM
Arthur has his "opinions," and I respect them. I just disagree with them.
Posted 09 February 2006 - 11:03 PM
Yes, the Jeep deal is based on opinion and what the parameters were for the original Willys and Ford GP.
But you have a vested interest in the WH designation since you collect WH paraphernalia and have stated your belief that even the semi WH's will be worth thousands of dollars before the earths eventual calamity. You would not be the first to encourage "rarity," exclusivity," desirability," in an object where none existed before.
Posted 09 February 2006 - 11:05 PM
Welcome to the forum.
There are many, including myself that feel the same about the Auto-Ordnance & Kahr semis. Even owning a Kahr clone, there are still many ways that one can enjoy not only the gun, but many original items available for collection revolving around the Thompson.
Around here we call it "Thompsonitis". It hit me so bad that I now have a room dedicated to 20's-30's items.
Its like stepping back in time!
It would take a lifetime or longer to learn all that is presented on this board if done with out its assistance.
Granted we do not always agree, as you have seen but the bottom line is the gun that started it all.
Posted 10 February 2006 - 12:53 AM
I would love to have the 1919G Model or a 28 Navy but I would still shoot it no matter what the value is just because I love the kid like thrill every time I dump 20, 30 or 50.
Mabe I am missing something but I do it from pure enjoyment.
I also have a 1927A1 Mfg in 1975 and bought it when I was in High School making about 40.00 a week. I do like the good info that I get on this Board but cringe every time someone new asks something to do with Real or replica. The same discussion begins again.
My .02 is lets share the love of everything Thompson, Numrich or Kahr and support the Rights of all Americans to enjoy whatever version we can enjoy. Oh yes Consult welcome.
Posted 10 February 2006 - 07:45 AM