Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

1928a1 Aoc Marked Barrels?


  • Please log in to reply
8 replies to this topic

#1 mrollender

mrollender

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 31 posts

Posted 16 February 2006 - 12:09 PM

So, this might be an obvious question, but did Auto Ordnance make both the finned and smooth barrel types? In the barrel section of Franks book, it talks about the barrel markings, but as far as I can tell, it doesn't distinguish what types of barrels were made by what manufacturers. Is the assumption that all manufacturer's made both finned and smooth barrels?

I have a later production AO gun (post 80,000 SN), with an L sight, and a smooth barrel. What would be correct barrel markings? Could it have a Savage marked barrel, or would an AOC marked smooth barrel be correct?
Thanks!
Matt
  • 0

#2 mrollender

mrollender

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 31 posts

Posted 16 February 2006 - 01:29 PM

Mine is also just marked with a "P", nothing else, 4th style comp, and it's a smooth barrel. The gun is WB marked with a high serial number, so it was probably made in 1942.
Regards,
Matt

ps - you said 'started out'? Did you put a finned barrel and Lyman sight on it?
  • 0

#3 Roland the Thompsongunner

Roland the Thompsongunner

    Long Time Member

  • Regular Group
  • 187 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:pa
  • Interests:I am into motorcycles both dirt and street. Musclecars, and WWII reenacting and weapons.

Posted 17 February 2006 - 09:10 AM

Hello,
I have a Bridgport made 1928A1 gun serial 22163 with lyman sight and finned barrel. It only has the proof mark and the aligning mark on the side. No makers marks that I see. It has very thin nicely finished fins and a nice blue to it. It isnt parkerized like the reciever is. As far as I know, it is the original barrel on the gun. Dan
  • 0

#4 gijive

gijive

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2402 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Thompson SMG, WWII, Firearms in general.

Posted 17 February 2006 - 10:05 AM

QUOTE (Roland the Thompsongunner @ Feb 17 2006, 09:10 AM)

I have a Bridgport made 1928A1 gun serial 22163 with lyman sight and finned barrel. It only has the proof mark and the aligning mark on the side. No makers marks that I see. It has very thin nicely finished fins and a nice blue to it. It isnt parkerized like the reciever is. As far as I know, it is the original barrel on the gun. Dan

Hi,

Have you removed the front horizontal grip and checked the flange that seats against the receiver nose? This is normally where the contractor marks are on the barrel.

In addition, are you sure the receiver is parkerized and not matte finish black oxide (blue)? This would be the original finish for WWII guns. If it definitely parkerizing than it was most likely armory rebuilt at some point and may have a replacement barrel, although the barrel would generally be parkerized too. If the barrel is blue and the receiver is matte finish, it is likely the original finish. Some WWII contractor barrels were apparently unmarked. I had a display 1928A1 I built with an early proof marked barrel, nicely contoured fins (29) and no contractor marking.

There are no absolutes when it comes to WWII production items. The necessity of getting material out quickly sometimes resulted in variations in specifications from contractor to contractor.

Sounds like you have a nice early AO made 1928A1.
  • 0

#5 gijive

gijive

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2402 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Thompson SMG, WWII, Firearms in general.

Posted 17 February 2006 - 10:46 AM

QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Feb 17 2006, 10:11 AM)
It just occurred to me that your gun has a very low number for that series.  And then you mentioned the thin fins, which make it sound like a Colt barrel.  I wonder if, on the early guns, they might have used up some existing NOS Colt barrels, to get production rolling quickly? 

Phil,

That theory is correct for the early Savage produced guns when production resumed in early 1940. Auto-Ordnance, however, didn't start manufacturing the 1928A1 until they opened their own plant in late 1941. It is likely all the leftover Colt barrels had already been exhausted by that time. Besides, Russell Maguire completely refurbished the machinery and jigs, etc. when Auto-Ordnance started manufacturing the 1928A1.

Savage had some of the old Colt machinery, which was obviously upgraded when all production was switched to the 1928A1 Model for war time production.

I believed Dan was referring to his gun as an Auto-Ordnance made model, since that is what the thread was referring to originally. Serial number 22163 would be an early production AO gun and the finned barrel and adjustable Lyman sight would be correct.

If Dan is referring to a Savage made gun than that would be a horse of a different color, it could conceivably have a leftover Colt barrel. This confusion is one of the reasons I cringe when most contemporary collectors refer to any WWII 1928A1 Model Thompson as a "Bridgeport." They were all Bridgeport address marked, with the exception of the early Savage made 1928 Models which had the original New York address. This "Bridgeport" label doesn't actually distinguish whether the gun was made by Savage or AO.
  • 0

#6 gijive

gijive

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2402 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Thompson SMG, WWII, Firearms in general.

Posted 17 February 2006 - 11:46 AM

QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Feb 17 2006, 10:54 AM)


Thanks.  Any idea why his barrel would have thin fins?

Phil,

Not sure. PK did an excellent post a couple of weeks ago regarding the machining on WWII barrels. His study of several barrels concluded that the fin thickness varied considerably on many barrels made during WWII.

It could be attributed to individual machine operators, year of manufacture, type of machine used to cut the fins, contractor, etc. Maybe Dan's barrel is a replacement barrel manufactured by an unknown contractor?

Many factors could play a part. I guess a qualified gunsmith would have to physically examine the gun to determine if the barrel is a replacement or not. The fact that the witness marks line up tells me the barrel is probably original. Most replacement barrels I have seen with witness marks rarely line up, including many of the rebuilt guns that were sent to Europe during Lend-Lease (i.e. recent Russian imports).
  • 0

#7 Arthur Fliegenheimer

Arthur Fliegenheimer

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3453 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 February 2006 - 03:17 PM



gijive,Phil,

It seems that when the original 1921 Colt barrels were exchanged for new barrels for the 2nd pattern Cutts, the witness marks can appear to be a hair above or below the mark. I remember D.R. explaining this to some degree. The difference between 1921 barrels and the post 1927 barrels might account for the difference in fin thickness/thinness. I don't know if PK measured WWII barrels exclusively, or also measured Colt era barrels.

The Colt "Remington" barrels, to my knowledge, only have the witness mark, sans "P" mark or "0" mark.

  • 0

#8 gijive

gijive

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2402 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Thompson SMG, WWII, Firearms in general.

Posted 17 February 2006 - 04:28 PM

QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Feb 17 2006, 03:17 PM)


The Colt "Remington" barrels, to my knowledge, only have the witness mark, sans "P" mark or "0" mark. 

Arthur,

Yes, I agree with your assessment of the Colt/Remington barrels. I was referring to the WWII variety barrels and now that you mention it, PK's study had to do with barrels on Colt guns. I have spoken with him regarding WWII barrels and there is also some variance in the fin thickness on those also.

Interstingly, I had a barrel I used for a display gun that DR refinished. Doug called me after the refinishing and stated the barrel was a Colt era barrel. The barrel was completely shot out and had been taken off a gun with a pipe wrench. I was able to hand file the fins and sanded them and when it was refinished it looked pretty good. Anyway, it was a second type Colt barrel with the 3/4 thread for the Type II compensator, had no manufacturing code, but did have a P proof mark on the top of the flange.

I believe it was a leftover Colt barrel that was used on an early Savage gun and was proofed for an early military sale.
  • 0

#9 Roland the Thompsongunner

Roland the Thompsongunner

    Long Time Member

  • Regular Group
  • 187 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:pa
  • Interests:I am into motorcycles both dirt and street. Musclecars, and WWII reenacting and weapons.

Posted 17 February 2006 - 07:55 PM

Hello Everyone,
Great replys about the differences in barrels. To clear up some questions from above...My gun serial number is AO22163 so it is a Bridgport made gun. It has the original finish on the reciever which is sort of a dull blue and all the markings are very crisp. It def. isnt a reparked gun. The upper and lower numbers match. I rechecked the barrel for markings and I can find nothing except the P with a punch mark on top and the side alignment mark. I compared my barrel to many original guns and my fins are definitely thinner and are finished nicer than most I have seen. I looks a lot like my friends 28 colt gun. Now I am not stating that I think this is a colt barrel, I am only suggesting that it resembles a colt barrel more than a wwii issued one. The barrel definitely has a nice blued finish to it. My gun is also proof marked on the reciever W.B. and the ordnance bomb. This gun was bought from a big time Thompson collector here in Pa. He has several guns pictured in Roger Cox' book and is shown in the section how to shoot the Thompson. He told me when I bought it that as far as he knew, it was an all original gun from his collection. Thanks for all the unput here. I seem to learn something new here all the time! Dan
  • 0