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NAC West Hurley Question - When Moved?


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#1 dalbert

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 04:36 PM

Can anyone tell me when Numrich Arms Company moved from Mamaroneck, NY to West Hurley, NY?

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#2 dalbert

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 02:08 PM

PhilOhio,

Will do. My best guess right now is that they moved the 100 miles to West Hurley around 1956, and quite possibly earlier. The NAC Thompson sales/service/parts promotional flyer I have has the old Mamaroneck address crossed out, and is hand stamped with the new WH address. The postmark appears to be 1957. The Mamaroneck flyer had probably already been used for a little while, as it states the company had 13,000,000 parts in 4 warehouses, while the flyer cover with the postmark is updated to reflect an inventory of 15,000,000 parts. Another similar WH flyer I have, probably from around 1959 or so, and definitely pre-1963, updates the inventory level to 17,000,000 parts.

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#3 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 01:52 PM

If Trast purchased the 10,000 sq ft production space for the 1927A-1 in 1974 (that is described as the "new" AO plant), then the West Hurley address could not date back to the 1950's. Since the buildings were not new then, it had to be the address that was relatively new.

Even Helmer, in 1967, refers to NAC as "now" located in West Hurley, NY. He could have purchased already existing buildings that would account for the old appearance in 1967. If Numrich moved from Mamaroneck to West Hurley somewhere between 1951 and "earlier" than 1956, then why bother with the intentionally updated "now" reference in 1967? Why even make mention of the old address if it was the location for NAC fewer years than the "new" location? It seems that the West Hurley address dates back to that time (1966-67) when Numrich toyed with the idea to produce the 1927 A-1, but decided against it because of some fly in the ointment.

If your postal stamps are legible, and there is no zip code on the updated WH address catalog, then there is either confusion between two different West Hurley addresses, or Helmer and Nonte goofed.

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#4 dalbert

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 02:32 PM

Arthur,

The Mamaroneck/West Hurley NAC flyer I have is from the 1950's. It is probably 1957 from the barely legible postmark. It was mailed with a $.03 stamp. That first class postal rate expired on July 31, 1958.

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#5 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 02:37 PM

Do these 1950's Mamaroneck/West Hurley NAC fliers say "Auto Ordnance Corporation" on it anywhere?
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#6 gijive

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 02:44 PM

QUOTE (dalbert @ Feb 24 2006, 02:32 PM)
That first class postal rate expired on  July 31, 1958.


Dave,

Are you sure that the catalogues were mailed First Class Postage? Sometimes bulk literature mailings were 2nd or 3rd Class postage.
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#7 dalbert

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 03:30 PM

gijive,

Yes, it was mailed via first class mail. Here is a scan of the address portion of the flyer.

user posted image

If anyone wants to see a 1200 dpi scan of just the postmark, send me your e-mail address, and I will forward it to you.

I have 2 flyers. The first is the Mamaroneck/West Hurley flyer, with the Mamaroneck address printed on it, and a West Hurley address hand stamp applied, and the Mamaroneck address crossed out. It is the one that says "13,000,000 Parts In 4 Warehouses." The flyer itself is 4 pages long, with the first 3 complete pages devoted to sales of Model 1921, 1928, M1 and M1A1's, service of the these guns, and parts for these guns. The 4th page is devoted to parts sales for the Johnson Rifle. This one was mailed as a tri-fold, stapled, first class article with a cover page. The cover page has the West Hurley address, and the phone number "Kingston 7147." It also cites "Federal Manufacturers License 5865," and says, "Dealers in: Cannon, Machine Guns, Military Equipment, Sporting Arms, Gun Parts, Modern and Obsolete - Over 15,000,000 in Stock."

The second flyer has no date, but is pre-1963, as it does not have a zip code. It is virtually the same 4-page flyer with a few price changes. It has a West Hurley address, and claims "17,000,000 Parts In Stock." This one was probably mailed in an envelope, as there are no staple marks, and it is folded in half.

Arthur,

I'm talking about NAC Thompson flyers. There are no references made to "Auto-Ordnance Corporation" in these flyers.

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#8 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 03:55 PM

Dave,

Is there a street address on the WH fliers? Is there a street address on the Mamaroneck ones?

Why wouldn't Numrich use the "AOC" name on his advertising mailings for Thompson's? Why would he continue to use "Numrich Arms Company?" Seems odd that there is no reference to "AOC" on his Mamaroneck (circa 1951) address catalogs, or the West Hurley address catalogs (circa?) until 1975 when Trast first used it. I wonder if Numrich had produced the 1927 A-1 in 1967 if he would have manufactured it under the "Numrich Arms Corporation" name?

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#9 dalbert

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 04:10 PM

Arthur,

No street address is present on either flyer. They both list the company name, town, and state.

As for the AOC name not being used on these flyers, NAC had not chosen to use the name at that time in their business history. They chose to manufacture, market, service, and sell spare parts for Thompson Submachine Guns under the NAC name.

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#10 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 04:20 PM

QUOTE (dalbert @ Feb 24 2006, 04:10 PM)
Arthur,

As for the AOC name not being used on these flyers, NAC had not chosen to use the name at that time in their business history. They chose to manufacture, market, service, and sell spare parts for Thompson Submachine Guns under the NAC name.

David Albert
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Numrich "decided" not use the "AOC" name at that time? Seems he "decided" not to use it in the 1950's, 60' or first half of the 70's. It seems Trast, not Numrich, first "decided" to use the name on brochures/catalogs.

Is it possible that Numrich moved his operation twice in West Hurley?

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#11 colt21a

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 04:37 PM

i knew ira trast personally,and talked with him way before the 27 semi's came out.as he asked my opinion on a few item's before they produced them.....when the semi's came out i ended up with ser.177.......and after that a number of full auto's..probably bought twenty all total. he was a great guy, and always talked when i called... it was not oh! ira's not here,or leave a message for him.he also one year sent me one of the companie's valentine's card's...which is around someplace.of some employee's with thompson's and old car's...kinda a real neat item...like the old roger cox day's of law enforcement ord.

yep those days are long gone..what will collector's be talking about twenty year's from now?? {this web-site for sure!}wink! everybody have a good week,take care.ron
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#12 dalbert

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 04:54 PM

PhilOhio,

I have already contacted Ira Trast, and am waiting to see what comes forth. Thank you for your post, and personal historical perspective.

One thing to remember always...The history of the Thompson Submachine Gun has not been completely written by anyone. Relying solely on what has been written so far, and forming steadfast opinions based on the writings that currently exist can lead one to eventual disappointment. There are many more historical facts yet to be published and/or discovered.

In my opinion, Helmer did the best overall work historically, and is the bridge between those who were actually at AOC in the early years, and us today. Cox did some very good work also, more technically centered. Richardson has published some articles of merit. Tracie Hill did a great job of bringing the historical and technical sides together. Huon did a good job from the European perspective. Herigstad has undertaken a task of great magnitude. Frank did an outstanding job of documenting the war years, and I think there will be little more to add to his 2 works. Of course, some will debate these opinions.

My quest as a Thompson historian is to find and publish as much new historical information as possible that exists on the subject.

David Albert
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#13 gijive

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 07:59 PM

Well put David.

The Thompson Submachine Gun is a fascinating subject and I admire anyone who will take the time to try and bridge the history between the Maguire, Numrich and Ira Trast years.

Good luck on your quest and let me know if I can be of any service.
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#14 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 09:37 PM

QUOTE (dalbert @ Feb 25 2006, 04:54 PM)

One thing to remember always...The history of the Thompson Submachine Gun has not been completely written by anyone.  Relying solely on what has been written so far, and forming steadfast opinions based on the writings that currently exist can lead one to eventual disappointment.  There are many more historical facts yet to be published and/or discovered. 

In my opinion, Helmer did the best overall work historically, and is the bridge between those who were actually at AOC in the early years, and us today.  Cox did some very good work also, more technically centered.  Richardson has published some articles of merit.  Tracie Hill did a great job of bringing the historical and technical sides together.  Huon did a good job from the European perspective.  Herigstad has undertaken a task of great magnitude.  Frank did an outstanding job of documenting the war years, and I think there will be little more to add to his 2 works.  Of course, some will debate these opinions. 

My quest as a Thompson historian is to find and publish as much new historical information as possible that exists on the subject. 

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

It is true that the history of the Thompson has not been, and probably will never be, completely revealed. But just as there are definite periods in world history, i.e., ancient, biblical, middle ages, Renaissance, enlightenment, etc, the relevant historical period of the Thompson is ensconced between the end of The Great War and the end of WWII.

When you connect with Trast, I would be curious about his cooperation with Cox on "The Thompson Submachine Gun." He is even listed in the preface for special gratitude. Did he himself describe the Numrich Arms Corporation Thompson as a "reproduction?" If not, was he miffed at Cox's terminology in his book?

I would never attempt to produce a scholarly work on the Numrich/Trast period myself since I already have an opinion and I might be inclined to shade my findings to fit my predetermined thesis. Many professional historians have fallen prey to this parlous, yet human, fault.

Phil,

Your characterization of the NAC use of the "AOC" name as "not widely visible" raises some more questions David could pose to Trast.

I visited the WH place of business in the late 1970's. I am sure I ventured into the same shack, I mean combination warehouse/factory, but I can't remember the "AOC" sign. Of course I wasn't looking for it at the time either.

gijive,

Engineers have been able to bridge some incredible bodies of water and chasms, but in this metaphorical instance, I keep picturing The Bridge Of San Luis Rey.

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#15 gijive

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 10:25 PM

QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Feb 25 2006, 09:37 PM)
gijive,

Engineers have been able to bridge some incredible bodies of water and chasms, but in this metaphorical instance,  I keep picturing The Bridge Of San Luis Rey

Arthur,

Your metaphors are always interesting. I agree with your position on the murky succession of Auto-Ordnance after the Maguire era, nontheless, I think that anyone attemting to look into the Numrich/Trast era deserves some support. I don't think any clear-cut lineage exists, so anyone attempting this dauntless task needs all the encouragement they can get.
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#16 dalbert

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 08:15 AM

It occurred to me that I should have mentioned 3 works by Frank in my statement above. I reference his Submachine Guns of the U.S.A. book quite frequently, but I was thinking of his 2 works specific to the Thompson. Frank has a great chapter on WH Thompsons in the Subguns of the U.S.A. book, and it should be noted. Tom Nelson also put together the earliest substantial documentation of Thompsons in his 1963 work.

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#17 dalbert

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 10:52 PM

Just an update...

Since my original post on the subject, I determined from different sources that Numrich's purchase of the West Hurley location occurred in 1952. The company had multiple warehouses in Mamaroneck that led to difficult order fulfillment logistics, and thus George Numrich sought an alternate location to consolidate his inventory and operations. Ira Trast told me that the company was relocated to West Hurley between 1952 and 1953. He began working there in 1966.

The Mamaroneck addressed sales flyer apparently dates to 1952 or 1953, and was used at the new West Hurley location with the former location crossed out. NAC marketed and manufactured Thompsons, manufactured spare parts including barrels, serviced Thompsons, and also sold spare parts.

David Albert
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#18 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 11:29 PM

QUOTE
NAC marketed and manufactured Thompsons, manufactured spare parts including barrels, serviced Thompsons, and also sold spare parts.
dalbert


Just out of curiosity, if there were any examples of Numrich/West Hurley "manufactured" TSMG's, what happened to them? From what we know of high profile NFA transactions, there is no example of a Numrich original. That is a complete TSMG using a newly made receiver that was not one of the crated receivers stamped Auto-Ordnance Corporation prior to 1945. There is also no evidence that Nurmich ever incorporated the West Hurley address with the "AOC" name on any parts TSMG or "manufactured" TSMG until Trast made his versions in 1975.
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#19 dalbert

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 11:33 AM

Arthur,

As evidenced in a past post, you prefer an alternate definition of "manufacturing" than I. I use the definition our nations’ manufacturing metrics are based upon. Assembly of parts into a finished good is manufacturing. NAC assembled Thompson parts, whether they were pre-existing from crates, or fabricated by NAC, resulting in a finished good they marketed as a Thompson Submachine Gun. As you know, these are popularly referred to as "NAC Thompsons." (The previous sentence is intended for those who may not be familiar with this type of TSMG.) I have not found evidence yet that any new receivers were manufactured by NAC prior to 1974. Existing receivers were utilized. Barrels were produced onsite by NAC by at least 1957, and probably earlier, and were in production the entire time Ira Trast was employed there.

David Albert
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#20 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 10:01 PM

Why Numrich would make new barrels for TSMG's when existing Savage/AO WWII NOS barrels (that still crop up today in wax paper), were in abundance is a mystery. Especially when those Nurmrich barrels are easy to spot as after market.

Maybe Numrich should have looked inside those crates he purchased in 1951. In his 1967 interview, he stated he had still not examined the contents. Apparently Trast's curiosity got the better of him for he found inside the crates Savage/AO barrels and other WWII parts that he figured he would use for the first offings of his version of the TSMG in 1975.

Why Numrich stamped "NAC" as a prefix, or suffix, on any TSMG, other than those he imported, that had existing serial numbers, is odd. If he did indeed own the AOC and Thompson name, would not these original stampings suffice for ATF?

Even car manufacturers make the distinction between "manufacturing" and "assembling." Nissan states that some of its automobiles are manufactured in Smyrna, Georgia, and assembled in Mexico.

Did you get a chance to ask Trast why he needed to apply for the Thompson name in 1974 and the AOC name in 1986?

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