Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

I Want A .25 Acp Thompson


  • Please log in to reply
21 replies to this topic

#1 steeltoe1978

steeltoe1978

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 142 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 February 2006 - 09:31 PM

Friends,
My absolute dream gun is a scaled down 1921 Thompson that fires .25 ACP ammo (complete with mini L drums, C drums, and stick mags)

Because of the rules, I will most likely be unable to own one of these within my lifetime unless I am a licensed machinegun manufacturer.

Now, here's my question....

I have a registered M-11 machinegun Would I be able to scale down/narrow the receiver of my M11 and build something different out of it, or would my design have to have the original receiver completely untouched? If I were able to convert my receiver into a small scale Thompson... what's to stop me from slicing the section of my M11 receiver that contains the serial number and making a SAW or an M60 out of it... you all know much better about how these things work than I do.

What are the limits that I can work with in regards to how much I can change one of my registered machine guns into something else (a miniature thompson)? Thanks... and please don't flame me, as this is my first post and I am DEAD serious about wanting this gun. smile.gif

R,
Steeltoe
  • 0

#2 Z3BigDaddy

Z3BigDaddy

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3697 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:State of Jefferson
  • Interests:Shooting, Hunting, Metal Detecting, Gun Trad'n

Posted 22 February 2006 - 09:47 PM

This should be a fun thread.... I have great interest in the answer to this one.....
  • 0

#3 steeltoe1978

steeltoe1978

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 142 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 February 2006 - 09:54 PM

QUOTE (Z3BigDaddy @ Feb 22 2006, 09:47 PM)
This should be a fun thread....  I have great interest in the answer to this one.....

hey, just keep in mind that it was me who proposed a scaled down .25 ACP Thompson. tongue.gif biggrin.gif

-Steeltoe1978 (father of the .25 acp Thompson)

Edited by steeltoe1978, 22 February 2006 - 09:55 PM.

  • 0

#4 TD.

TD.

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2948 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 February 2006 - 10:28 PM

Hi Steeltoe 1978,
I assume you know at one time a Mr. E.H. de la Garrigue actually manufactured scaled down Thompsons in caliber .25 ACP that were working machine guns subject to transfer tax or with dummy receivers not subject to regulation. I believe these miniature Thompsons were manufactured in the 1970's and all models were available for purchase. J.Curtis Earl marketed these miniature Thompsons at one time. I do not have any production figures, but I believe a fair number were made. It seems like Mr. de la Garrigue was from Texas, but I may be wrong about that.

  • 0

#5 deerslayer

deerslayer

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 1721 posts
  • Location:North Iowa

Posted 22 February 2006 - 11:31 PM

Registered part of a mac is the lower isn't it? I've seen a lot of cosmetic changes to mac's maybe this would be workable.

Here is another idea to add to the mix. Could you use say a registered UZI bolt to make a new type of gun? Really different from a thompson bolt of course, but could it be the full auto component? Or maybe a lightning link or some sort of registered auto sear?

Wait, the best answer would be a broadhead armory sear. Proably aren't any left unbuilt, but maybe you could talk somebody out of theirs by offering say a trade for a westy 28?

Dan

  • 0

#6 OldFalGuy

OldFalGuy

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 700 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central Texas
  • Interests:Sporting Clays, Skeet, Reloading and just plain Living

Posted 22 February 2006 - 11:49 PM

"What are the limits that I can work with in regards to how much I can change one of my registered machine guns into something else (a miniature thompson)? Thanks... and please don't flame me, as this is my first post and I am DEAD serious about wanting this gun"

I can state without hesitation this is NOT permitted.

Registered Uzi bolt you can make about anything- We have seen this with the RoboCop gun
Likewise a registered tube-Sten,Sterling and that new thing that Autoweapons.com is selling

Building a frame/cover that looks Thompson etc. etc would be doable but I would rahter hunt down oneof these minitures myself.
  • 0

#7 John Jr

John Jr

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 1956 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mena, Arkansas, USA
  • Interests:Plenty

Posted 22 February 2006 - 11:49 PM

There have been some rulings and I am not sure what they were, but I wouldn't try to do this with a MAC or UZI. Look into what TD mentioned, I have seen picture of those things.


  • 0

#8 Z3BigDaddy

Z3BigDaddy

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3697 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:State of Jefferson
  • Interests:Shooting, Hunting, Metal Detecting, Gun Trad'n

Posted 23 February 2006 - 12:28 AM

QUOTE (deerslayer @ Feb 22 2006, 11:31 PM)


Here is another idea to add to the mix. Could you use say a registered UZI bolt to make a new type of gun? Really different from a thompson bolt of course, but could it be the full auto component? Or maybe a lightning link or some sort of registered auto sear?

Wait, the best answer would be a broadhead armory sear. Proably aren't any left unbuilt, but maybe you could talk somebody out of theirs by offering say a trade for a westy 28?

Dan

I'll take that trade... woot.gif But mine is registered as .22/.45 calibre so I don't no if .25 calibre would be allowed... The other thing is that the base gun would have to be a semi-auto that could not be readily made into full auto....
  • 0

#9 OldFalGuy

OldFalGuy

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 700 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central Texas
  • Interests:Sporting Clays, Skeet, Reloading and just plain Living

Posted 23 February 2006 - 12:33 AM

Z3-

Caliber wise wouldn't be a problem at all, one can amend thier form 4 to reflect other calibers but one need not do so- NFA looks for good title and the serial number- barrel lengths can change between owner A and B no problem. My 16 doesn't say anything but 223 and the RDIAS doesn't have anything- but I suppose one could make a list that would fill the form-hahahah

Mark
  • 0

#10 adlake

adlake

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 536 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. Paul
  • Interests:Fords(1982 Ford Fairmont,351-C, AOD,sport style Futura.), 1920-1930 lifestyles, all thompson guns (except M-1).

Posted 23 February 2006 - 03:03 AM

Thought there was a Japanese guy in the 50's or/and 60's making scale .25 autos and there were masterpieces. I think I seem one in my travels.-adlake
  • 0

#11 giantpanda4

giantpanda4

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2106 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Howell, MI 48855
  • Interests:Mechanical toys - cars, instruments, and of course - guns. The 1921-28 thompsons are the epitomy of perfection for a mechanical device that fills all my interests!

Posted 23 February 2006 - 07:10 AM

The E.H. de la Garrigue models are beautiful, he made 1928 and M1 replicas.

There have been a couple on Evilbay that sold around $1300 or so, with the dummy recievers.

Tracie Hill has one as well as many other scale models. Go to the Thompson Show & Shoot in August, you will be able to see them there.
  • 0

#12 DINK

DINK

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 199 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 23 February 2006 - 08:27 AM

Sorry, but BATFE will not allow excessive modification to a registered M.G. Conversions to another member of the gun's "family" are allowed, but anything radical would not be.

For example, if you have a Sten gun, you can convert it into a Sterling or a Lanchester, as they are all "tube guns" using the same basic size and shape for the registered part. Even then, BATFE won't let you move the cocking handle slot in the Sten tube so you have to modify the bolt and cocking handle on your Sterling parts.

Taking a MAC M11/9 and trying to convert it to a mini Thompson of some kind wouldn't fly. I seem to recall some enterprising individual in the past who cut out the part of a Sten tube with the markings on it and welded it into the side of an M60 to make a rather odd looking Sten gun. BATFE put the squash on him.

Before you start slicing and dicing on a registered receiver, send a letter describing your proposed project to the Technology Branch of BATFE and get their blessing (in writing). It's the only way to be sure of keeping your gun and not going to the Greybar Hotel.
  • 0

#13 ClevelandShooter

ClevelandShooter

    Long Time Member

  • Regular Group
  • 179 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cleveland Ohio
  • Interests:Class 3,Beer, VietNam era small arms, Beer, Harley-Davidson's, Beer, and as Car and driver once said "Torque and Recoil"

Posted 23 February 2006 - 11:47 AM

Whatever you decide to do it would be best to submit it in writing with any drawings you could make to the BATF for approval. But a thought just occurred to me wouldn't it be much easier to convert a westie .22 to .25???? I know rim fire to center fire. but rework the bolt and make or rework the barrel???
Just a thought.
MY.02
BILL OUT
  • 0

#14 OldFalGuy

OldFalGuy

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 700 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central Texas
  • Interests:Sporting Clays, Skeet, Reloading and just plain Living

Posted 23 February 2006 - 01:36 PM

THe barrel and bolt would be doable with a 45 to start with, finding a magazine would be a trick- but at the end of the day it wouldn't be a miniature- rather see the 22 conversion work properly in a WH but then I am selfish and a 22aholic.
  • 0

#15 kilroyjones

kilroyjones

    Long Time Member

  • Regular Group
  • 185 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 23 February 2006 - 05:12 PM

The .25 acp is just about a half scale .45, I think a half scale .25 tommy would be a great project. A semi-auto SBR would probably be the best bet, unless you were licensed and built a post-86 sample.

I always thought about using .308 links and the .45acp to build a scaled down version of the beltfed 40mm grenade launcher. The .45 and the 40mm round look similar in shape, and being a tripod mounted gun I would think it would be considered a pistol rather than a SBR. Sort of like the Tippman .22 1919's and M2's. Maybe some day I will get the motivation and money to start ...
  • 0

#16 faabala

faabala

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 35 posts

Posted 24 February 2006 - 10:52 AM

It is too cute....

user posted image
  • 0

#17 OldFalGuy

OldFalGuy

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 700 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central Texas
  • Interests:Sporting Clays, Skeet, Reloading and just plain Living

Posted 24 February 2006 - 11:44 AM

But Phil- Will it shoot 22's !!!!!!!!!!!

hahahahhahahahah

Man, I need a 12 step group
  • 0

#18 amafrank

amafrank

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 165 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Indianapolis, USA
  • Interests:MG's of all types. Cannons that can be transported by normal people. Fine firearms of all descriptions.

Posted 24 February 2006 - 09:57 PM

One minor detail that seems to get forgotten.....25ACP is a semi-rim cartridge while .45 ACP is rimless. Its a pain to make mags for the .25 that aren't curved and this was one of the problems with the original models of the thompsons. I fired one back in the early '80s and it worked fine with the drum but the stick mags were a serious failure. I've thought about building a posty as mini's have always been my idea of cool.

As to modding another registered receiver or bolt I'd say no go. You can check with tech branch but normally a rule of thumb is any change over 20% on the original receiver is too much. Try to find that in writing and you'll spend some serious time but it seems to be a guideline..

good luck
Frank


  • 0

#19 Mongo

Mongo

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 131 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 23 April 2006 - 04:10 PM

There is a miniture M1 Thompson for sale here LINKY

Does not say if it is operational. It's only $1870 ohmy.gif

To me it does not look of the high qualitity I've seen else where but its better than I could make.

Notice it comes with the "original" white lettering tongue.gif

user posted image
user posted image
user posted image
user posted image
  • 0

#20 Mongo

Mongo

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 131 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 23 April 2006 - 04:33 PM

Another on for sale but no details or pictures Linky

Another miniture (don't know if it fires either)
user posted image

Another mini Thompson (does not fire)
user posted image

Another mini Thompson (does not fire)
user posted image

Another Linky

Another Linky


  • 0