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Sturm Savage 1928 Advice Neede


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#1 kjo

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 07:33 PM

hi all

like many folks here, i look in from time to time to see what is happening in the world of Thompson SMG's. i've thought long and hard about gettting one (and watching them become even less obtainable as their prices climb).

there is one available on sturm (http://www.sturmgewe....cgi?read=70734)

wondering if you knowledgeable gents have any advice on the package (not so much its price, more on its authenticity)

if i make an offer, is there anyone in the chandler, az area that you could recommend with whom i could discuss looking at the gun with a more expert eye than mine.

the gun looks almost too good; the dealer is not aware of it being refinished. has been owned by the same fellow for the past 12-13 yrs.

i appreciate any help you all can offer.

regards

kevin
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#2 gijive

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 08:48 PM

kjo,

The gun is an original early Savage gun, sometimes referred to as a "Commercial" because some of the early police sales guns had some original Colt parts in them. The gun pictured doesn't have an original actuator, since an early Savage gun like that would have a knurled actuator. The fire select levers appear to the correct Savage style knurling. The wood has been sanded and obviously refinished. The gun itself has also probably been refinished.

The drum pictured is not an original drum, it is a current Numrich, West Hurley type drum. Can't tell about the one in the plastic, but probably also West Hurley, since if it was original the seller would have probably pictured it.

It's an original gun from outward appearnces. Someone should examine the gun in person to determine if the internal parts are all original.
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#3 kjo

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 09:48 PM

gentlemen, thanks for the info

if i am getting this gun as a representative weapon of its era should i be concerned that someone refinished it (let's assume it was refinished very professionally). does the fact that the gun might be refinished detract significantly from its value, both historical and financial? or am i more interested in its parts being original and in good working order?

i would rather learn what the best combination of fit and finish is and miss a gun, or several, than get one that i am disappointed in when i do learn what i want.

i will try to review past posts of folks like me so as not to trouble you all with too much repetition of the same old questions we uninformed probably all ask as we try to become informed.

kevin
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#4 gijive

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 07:09 AM

Kevin,

Refinishing (wood and metal) affects the value somewhat. But, there are so few 1928 Models (like the one pictured) that are transferable, I wouldn't worry about it. If it was refinished, it was done very well.

You should have someone knowledgable, check the compensator and the internal parts to see if they are proper for the period the gun was made. Everything else looks correct, except of course the drums which are not original.
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#5 TSMGguy

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 10:39 AM

At least if it was refinished, it was blued, which is correct. It looks as though the original rivets holding the Lyman rear sight have not been disturbed, or if they were, original looking bright rivets were used. There is some battering on the heads of the pins where someone pounded out the pivot plate, so we know that the internals have probably been messed with. The plain actuator would bear out that assumption.

There are no military inspection or acceptance marks or obliterated "US", so this looks to be a true Savage commercial '28. I'd say that the gun has few visible problems that couldn't be corrected, given time and motivation. Yes, the wood has been refinished. You could do it again yourself, avoiding what looks to be varnish this time.

You're right, the prices will continue to head nowhere but up.

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#6 kjo

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 10:51 AM

Again, thanks all for the evaluation of the gun from the pics

as i understand you all: the gun looks like an original savage commercial receiver (check out the internals); refinish looks ok (varnish should be taken off wood); needs period correct actuator; an original drum to go with the gun would help to complete the package, down the road.

I'll see if i can find a knowledgable thompson guy in the AZ area and have him take a look at it before i make an offer

sound like i understand you all; any other suggestions?

kevin
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#7 ODS9091

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 11:02 AM

QUOTE (TSMGguy @ Mar 3 2006, 10:39 AM)
At least if it was refinished, it was blued, which is correct. It looks as though the original rivets holding the Lyman rear sight have not been disturbed, or if they were, original looking bright rivets were used. There is some battering on the heads of the pins where someone pounded out the pivot plate, so we know that the internals have probably been messed with. The plain actuator would bear out that assumption.

There are no military inspection or acceptance marks or obliterated "US", so this looks to be a true Savage commercial '28. I'd say that the gun has few visible problems that couldn't be corrected, given time and motivation. Yes, the wood has been refinished. You could do it again yourself, avoiding what looks to be varnish this time.

You're right, the prices will continue to head nowhere but up.


There does appear to be a "GEG" in the upper left in the close up of the serial number.

No "FJA" though..duh..

Edited by ODS9091, 03 March 2006 - 11:05 AM.

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#8 gijive

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 11:15 AM

QUOTE (ODS9091 @ Mar 3 2006, 11:02 AM)
There does appear to be a "GEG" in the upper left in the close up of the serial number.


ODS9091,

Yes, that's true there is a GEG (George E. Goll) acceptance mark on the receiver, but GEG should apear on all Savage made guns. He was the civillian inspector at the Savage plant for Auto-Ordnance Corporation.

I think TSMGguy was only referring to military acceptance marks.
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#9 kjo

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 12:54 PM

thanks for the "welcome" and the further follow up

i do have a C & R license; good to know about the weapon's c and r status.

i am working on finding someone to check the gun out

kevin
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#10 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 12:56 PM



I would agree with gijive that the scratches on the receiver look blued over and the wear on top of the receiver by the actuator signal newer usage. The poor quality photos make it difficult to determine whether the refinish matches that of an original Savage "Commercial." There are no pics of the right side of the weapon. It would seem unusual to have all the wood garishly refinished, or more likely replaced, and not the rest of the weapon. Why not leave the wood in it's original condition if the rest of the weapon were in original condition?

Since the catalog is a reproduction, you might well take your time examining the interior components to ensure that it does have Colt parts. Other than the serial number that falls inside the parameters for a Savage "Commercial," it seems that the other assets that differentiate it from WWII Savages MIGHT have been obliterated or substituted.

But $25K sounds reasonable if the internals check out.

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#11 rjb1

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 02:07 PM

Would the serial number on this one be in the 18000 range or 180000 range? (I have tried to tell by guestimating the length of the blanked-out area, but am not sure.)

I have the almost-twin brother of this one (A Savage Model of 1928) in the 136000 range so I am curious about this issue.

As a comment to Kevin, if this one works as well as my apparently-similar one, you will be well-pleased if you get it. Mine has never failed to feed, fire, or done anything else except what it was supposed to do.

Joel
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#12 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 02:15 PM

rjb1

Savage "Commercials" would be in the approximate 15,000 to 25,000 range.

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#13 TSMGguy

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 04:01 PM

The 180,000 serial range would include WWII M1928A1s.

Hey, for that kind of money I'd ask to shoot the gun. A single 50 round box would tell the tale. You'd be looking for perfect functioning indicating (among other things) that the feed ramp has never been messed with. If the gun shoots "right on" for the range you've set on the ladder of the Lyman sight, you can probably bet that the original factory targeting is undisturbed. Fire a few single shots from a rest for this test and use full power 230 grain ball ammo. You'll be surprised how accurate the gun can be.

I wish that the photos offered a bit more detail and clarity, but it looks like a gun to be considered.

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#14 kjo

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Posted 06 March 2006 - 07:11 PM

after the weekend passed i find that i am able to get more pics of the gun. internals and the second drum are available. i do not know how to attach them to this post so, if you do not mind, i would like to email the pics to a cpl of you knowlegeable guys for your comments. if you would cooperate in this evaluation please email me at:koneill@indy.rr.com.

OR MAYBE TRY THIS LINK (i may have worked out the picture thing):

http://homepage.mac....hotoAlbum5.html


thanks in advance

kevin
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#15 kjo

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Posted 06 March 2006 - 09:11 PM

phil

earlier posts said i should check that the internals are "original" for the gun to be a "good package"

1. i am not certain what "original"means (what are the alternatives to original and do these parts look like what i'd want?)

2. the actuator is not original; can that be remedied by finding one on the secondary market (one of these parts kits you all are talking about from sportman's guide?)

3. drums are not period correct (what is period correct, are they available and what do they cost?)

4. are these commercial guns so rare that they demand a pemium over the 28 war models? (ie, are they somewhere between the colts and the war 28's in market value?)

you all have been a god-send in evaluating this weapon; thanks

kevin
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#16 gijive

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Posted 06 March 2006 - 09:40 PM

Kevin,

The pictures you posted are very nice. The actuator, upon seeing a clearer picture, is a knurled actuator of Stevens (square S) manufacture. It is a correct WWII contractor part. Usually the early Savage Commercial guns had some leftover Colt parts. The internal parts on this gun are all earlly WWII vintage and are correct for for an early Savage gun. The term "Commercial" is subjective and was coined to refer to very early Savage guns sold to commercial law enforcement after the supply of Colt guns was exhausted. All the other parts shown in the pictures are "S" for Savage marked. I would tend to think a very early Savage gun would have a Savage "S" marked actuator and not a Stevens (square S) marked actuator. It may indicate some parts were changed, but I think we already determnined that the gun has probably been rebuilt and refinished. The Stevens made actuator is not a big deal.

Of the two drums pictures, one is a West Hurley model (circa 1980's and the other is a Worcetster manufactured drum for the Colt/early Savage guns manufactured in the mid to late 1930's. So at least one of the drums is the correct vintage.
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#17 kjo

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Posted 07 March 2006 - 08:40 AM

looks like the gun is going for full asking price and i don't want to get caught up in a bidding war

so......thanks for the education and i will keep my eyes open for the next tsmg to come along

kevin
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#18 gijive

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Posted 07 March 2006 - 09:38 AM

QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Mar 6 2006, 09:43 PM)
Should a "Savage commercial" TSMG have a premium attached to its value?  I very much doubt it, but could be wrong.  The gun is quite valuable as is.  What do you think, Gijive?


Well Phil, as long as you asked I'll venture an opinion smile.gif

My interpretation of the Savage "Commercial" is gleaned from Roger Cox's original description of the gun which, according to his book, were guns ordered by police agencies that originally may have thought they were getting a Colt gun.

Leftover Colt parts were apparently used on many very early Savage guns. This would be my personal understanding of a true Savage "Commercial" gun, although, as I mentioned in the earlier post I think this term is somewhat subjective. I think a documented police agency gun with some early Colt internal parts and original finish would draw a premium, yes.


The gun that started this thread, is by all photographic observations, an all "correct" early Savage made gun, with the exception of the external refinishing of metal and wood. Since Stevens, being a sister company of Savage, made many TSMG parts on behalf of Savage, the actuator would also be "correct." I just wasn't aware that Stevens was making the parts for Savage from the earliest days of Savage production. My original thoughts were that Stevens may have been brought into the equation when war production increased, but who knows, they may have been contracted to make parts from the earliest Savage production dates.

Although, I'm flattered that you think I might be somewhat of an authority on certain matters, I learn something interesting about these guns on a regular basis, just like the rest of us.
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