What form do you use to apply for C & R. Also waht advantage/disadvantage is there. Since the Wh made the list and the GG is C & R , it may be time to apply.
Curio And Relics
Started by
cavediver
, Mar 05 2006 12:58 AM
24 replies to this topic
#1
cavediver
-
- Regular Group
-
- 221 posts
Long Time Member
- Gender:Male
- Location:Copperhill, TN
- Interests:All types of full auto weapons, Cannons and hunting.
Posted 05 March 2006 - 12:58 AM
#2
DC Chris
-
- Regular Group
-
- 408 posts
Long Time RKI Member
- Gender:Male
- Location:Columbia, MD
Posted 05 March 2006 - 02:07 AM
Cavediver-
The form is ATF Form 7CR. Submit a copy, with a certificate of compliance and a 30 dollar check to the ATF in Atlanta and you should be good to go. You also are required to send a second copy of the ATF Form 7CR only (no check or certificate of compliance) to your CLEO to announce your intentions. Instructions and forms are available from the ATF's website. I would suggest that you call or fill in the web form to get the forms sent to your house.
I must be getting old and stupid because I don't know what you mean by "waht advantage/disadvantage is there." Advantage? Getting cool guns directly to your front door is an advantage. WH 1928 .22's and full auto M1's have been on the C&R list for a few years. Just recently - and thanks to some devoted Thompson collectors out there, the ATF ruled that ALL Thompsons are now subject to C&R rules that were registered before May 19, 1986 regardless of who made them and as long as they were legally registered previously on a form 1 or a form 4.
Disadvantage to having a C&R? None, other than the obvious draw on your checking account when you add to your collection.
Chris.
P.S. You should donate to this site. If you are willing to spend $30 for the C&R, slipping a twenty spot to Nick and Frank for all of the info you have received since you joined is a small price to pay....
The form is ATF Form 7CR. Submit a copy, with a certificate of compliance and a 30 dollar check to the ATF in Atlanta and you should be good to go. You also are required to send a second copy of the ATF Form 7CR only (no check or certificate of compliance) to your CLEO to announce your intentions. Instructions and forms are available from the ATF's website. I would suggest that you call or fill in the web form to get the forms sent to your house.
I must be getting old and stupid because I don't know what you mean by "waht advantage/disadvantage is there." Advantage? Getting cool guns directly to your front door is an advantage. WH 1928 .22's and full auto M1's have been on the C&R list for a few years. Just recently - and thanks to some devoted Thompson collectors out there, the ATF ruled that ALL Thompsons are now subject to C&R rules that were registered before May 19, 1986 regardless of who made them and as long as they were legally registered previously on a form 1 or a form 4.
Disadvantage to having a C&R? None, other than the obvious draw on your checking account when you add to your collection.
Chris.
P.S. You should donate to this site. If you are willing to spend $30 for the C&R, slipping a twenty spot to Nick and Frank for all of the info you have received since you joined is a small price to pay....
#3
rakerss74
-
- Regular Group
-
- 27 posts
Member
- Gender:Male
- Location:UNITED STATES, ILLINOIS
Posted 05 March 2006 - 02:26 AM
D.C. Chris does the copy that will be sent to ATF have to be signed by the CLEO?
#4
DC Chris
-
- Regular Group
-
- 408 posts
Long Time RKI Member
- Gender:Male
- Location:Columbia, MD
Posted 05 March 2006 - 02:33 AM
rakerss74-
Nope. The 7CR to the ATF does not require CLEO signoff.
Chris.
Nope. The 7CR to the ATF does not require CLEO signoff.
Chris.
#5
JimFromFL
-
- Regular Group
-
- 1966 posts
Long Time RKI Member
- Gender:Male
- Location:Florida
Posted 05 March 2006 - 08:47 AM
Checkout the following URL for some general info Look Here
Advantage
---------------
When is comes to Semi-Auto firearms that are on the C&R list you can get these mailed from anywhere in the US to your front door. Whether it be from on OnLine Store or some guy from the OnLine Auctions sites.
Some OnLine stores will provide discounts if you mail/fax them your C&R. I know MidWay does this.
No background checks when purchasing C&R items at gunshows. Just give them a copy of your license and move on (get a copy of their FFL). Now it takes 2 minutes to complete the transaction as opposed to 20 minutes.
Disadvantage
----------------------
C&R purchases must be documented (a very small detail, but still something that must be done. ) as ATF will request this if they decide to do a spot check.
If you like to buy and sell C&R items, don't get a C&R license because the license says you are a collector and if your paperwork shows numerous transactions they will consider you a dealer.
Class III
---------------
This is my understanding (anyone please correct me if wrong).
If you buy a Colt Thompson and have a C&R license, it still must have a Form 5 from the person to another dealer if out of state then to your dealer as well and you still must wait the 3+ months while it sits at the dealers shop.
If you buy it from you neighbor, he "may - please confirm" be able to ship it to you but once again, after the 3+ months of waiting for the Form 4 to be approved. So, it becomes a choice of who do you want to hold it (the dealer or the guy selling it).
Advantage
---------------
When is comes to Semi-Auto firearms that are on the C&R list you can get these mailed from anywhere in the US to your front door. Whether it be from on OnLine Store or some guy from the OnLine Auctions sites.
Some OnLine stores will provide discounts if you mail/fax them your C&R. I know MidWay does this.
No background checks when purchasing C&R items at gunshows. Just give them a copy of your license and move on (get a copy of their FFL). Now it takes 2 minutes to complete the transaction as opposed to 20 minutes.
Disadvantage
----------------------
C&R purchases must be documented (a very small detail, but still something that must be done. ) as ATF will request this if they decide to do a spot check.
If you like to buy and sell C&R items, don't get a C&R license because the license says you are a collector and if your paperwork shows numerous transactions they will consider you a dealer.
Class III
---------------
This is my understanding (anyone please correct me if wrong).
If you buy a Colt Thompson and have a C&R license, it still must have a Form 5 from the person to another dealer if out of state then to your dealer as well and you still must wait the 3+ months while it sits at the dealers shop.
If you buy it from you neighbor, he "may - please confirm" be able to ship it to you but once again, after the 3+ months of waiting for the Form 4 to be approved. So, it becomes a choice of who do you want to hold it (the dealer or the guy selling it).
#6
cavediver
-
- Regular Group
-
- 221 posts
Long Time Member
- Gender:Male
- Location:Copperhill, TN
- Interests:All types of full auto weapons, Cannons and hunting.
Posted 05 March 2006 - 08:47 AM
Thanks for the info. I wanted to make sure it was worth the effort.
I have donated in the past and will again. My status never changed after donation.
This is the best site bar none.
thanks
I have donated in the past and will again. My status never changed after donation.
This is the best site bar none.
thanks
#7
First Sergeant
-
- Regular Group
-
- 831 posts
Respected Member
- Gender:Male
- Location:South West Ohio
Posted 05 March 2006 - 08:59 AM
Jim,
If you are buying an C&R and have a C&R license you can deal directly with the owner, dealer or not, in state or out of state. Once approved the gun can be shipped to you directly. In the case of NFA, only one transfer and therefore one tax stamp is needed as well. Well worth the $30 fee for 3 yrs. Get one, you won't regret it !!
Chuck
If you are buying an C&R and have a C&R license you can deal directly with the owner, dealer or not, in state or out of state. Once approved the gun can be shipped to you directly. In the case of NFA, only one transfer and therefore one tax stamp is needed as well. Well worth the $30 fee for 3 yrs. Get one, you won't regret it !!
Chuck
#8
Lancer
-
- Board Donor
-
- 1055 posts
Long Time RKI Member
- Gender:Male
- Location:Fremont, Ohio
Posted 05 March 2006 - 09:53 AM
| QUOTE (cavediver @ Mar 5 2006, 08:47 AM) |
| I have donated in the past and will again. My status never changed after donation. |
Alot board members lost their "Sponsor" status several weeks ago when the board crashed. My guess is Nick hasn't had time to straighten it out.
#9
JimFromFL
-
- Regular Group
-
- 1966 posts
Long Time RKI Member
- Gender:Male
- Location:Florida
Posted 05 March 2006 - 11:38 AM
| QUOTE (First Sergeant @ Mar 5 2006, 08:59 AM) |
| Jim, If you are buying an C&R and have a C&R license you can deal directly with the owner, dealer or not, in state or out of state. Once approved the gun can be shipped to you directly. In the case of NFA, only one transfer and therefore one tax stamp is needed as well. Well worth the $30 fee for 3 yrs. Get one, you won't regret it !! Chuck |
If I understand this correctly, it means the person you bought it from in the other state would hold it until the Form 4 gets approved? Once approved, he would then ship it to you?
#10
kilroyjones
-
- Regular Group
-
- 187 posts
Long Time Member
- Gender:Male
Posted 05 March 2006 - 12:10 PM
The ATF can audit your C&R books, but you can request the audit take place at the local ATF office and not in your home.
Seems rather minor, but some people have a fear (phobia?) about letting the ATF in thier house.
Seems rather minor, but some people have a fear (phobia?) about letting the ATF in thier house.
#11
First Sergeant
-
- Regular Group
-
- 831 posts
Respected Member
- Gender:Male
- Location:South West Ohio
Posted 05 March 2006 - 05:20 PM
Jim,
That is correct, the current owner will hold it until the form is approved. BAFTE will send them the approved form and then He/She can then ship the gun and approved form to you.
Chuck
That is correct, the current owner will hold it until the form is approved. BAFTE will send them the approved form and then He/She can then ship the gun and approved form to you.
Chuck
#12
docmolar
-
- Regular Group
-
- 178 posts
RKI Member
- Gender:Male
- Location:Indiana
Posted 05 March 2006 - 08:10 PM
Jim
I just completed a out of state transfer with my C&R. no middleman needed.
I just completed a out of state transfer with my C&R. no middleman needed.
#13
cavediver
-
- Regular Group
-
- 221 posts
Long Time Member
- Gender:Male
- Location:Copperhill, TN
- Interests:All types of full auto weapons, Cannons and hunting.
Posted 05 March 2006 - 09:13 PM
I will apply this week. Thanks for all the help. You guys are great.
#14
JimFromFL
-
- Regular Group
-
- 1966 posts
Long Time RKI Member
- Gender:Male
- Location:Florida
Posted 05 March 2006 - 09:21 PM
I guess if you trust the seller, it works out great, but for me, I feel more comfortable with my Class III guy holding the item until sign off of the Form 4.
This avoids some issues where the seller could be using YOUR item for weekend enjoyment and eventually giving you an item in a condition that is different from what you remember.
This avoids some issues where the seller could be using YOUR item for weekend enjoyment and eventually giving you an item in a condition that is different from what you remember.
#15
Roland, Headless Thompson Gunner
-
- Board Benefactor
-
- 703 posts
Long Time RKI Member
- Gender:Male
- Location:East Coast
- Interests:Thompsons, Garands, All things WW2, Corsairs, Classic Guitars
Posted 05 March 2006 - 09:53 PM
The biggest disadvantage to a C&R is when it's combined with a major credit card and a Gunbroker or an Auctionarms account. You'll feel like a high roller in Vegas baby!
#16
Waffen Und Bier
-
- Board Benefactor
-
- 806 posts
Long Time RKI Member
- Gender:Male
- Interests:Like the name says "Guns and beer" (and really hot chicks who like guns and beer).
Posted 05 March 2006 - 10:03 PM
I was under the impression C&R still required CLEO sign offs for Class III stuff.
#17
giantpanda4
-
- Board Benefactor
-
- 2431 posts
Respected Member
- Gender:Male
- Location:Howell, MI 48855
- Interests:Mechanical toys - cars, instruments, and of course - guns. The 1921-28 thompsons are the epitomy of perfection for a mechanical device that fills all my interests!
Posted 05 March 2006 - 10:12 PM
Waffen,
It does - not to get the license, but to purchase any CIII stuff.
Someone here mentioned having the audit at the BATFE location instead of your home, maybe you can request it but not demand it. They have the right (ie you don't have the right to say NO) to come in and search your premises if they have a reason to since they made you sign your approval of that when you get the license.
It does - not to get the license, but to purchase any CIII stuff.
Someone here mentioned having the audit at the BATFE location instead of your home, maybe you can request it but not demand it. They have the right (ie you don't have the right to say NO) to come in and search your premises if they have a reason to since they made you sign your approval of that when you get the license.
#18
Arthur Fliegenheimer
-
- Regular Group
-
- 3762 posts
Respected Member
- Gender:Male
Posted 05 March 2006 - 10:28 PM
| QUOTE (JimFromFL @ Mar 5 2006, 09:21 PM) |
| I guess if you trust the seller, it works out great, but for me, I feel more comfortable with my Class III guy holding the item until sign off of the Form 4. This avoids some issues where the seller could be using YOUR item for weekend enjoyment and eventually giving you an item in a condition that is different from what you remember. |
If there is a question about the seller using the weapon while paper work is pending, the buyer can take all components but the receiver. That might make it a little inconvenient for the seller to go plinking.
#19
Bill in VA
-
- Regular Group
-
- 680 posts
Long Time RKI Member
- Gender:Male
- Location:Southwest Virginia
Posted 06 March 2006 - 07:26 AM
| QUOTE (giantpanda4 @ Mar 5 2006, 10:12 PM) |
| Someone here mentioned having the audit at the BATFE location instead of your home, maybe you can request it but not demand it. They have the right (ie you don't have the right to say NO) to come in and search your premises if they have a reason to since they made you sign your approval of that when you get the license. |
No offense, but that is not correct. 923(g)(1)(D) clearly states that the BATF does not have the "right" (or more properly, "the authority" to search one's home during a compliance inspection. Moreover, a C&R FFL holder does have "the right" to say "no" to a request to hold the compliance inspection at home. Simply holding a C&R FFL does not negate one's Fourth Amendment rights. Bottom line: short of a court-ordered warrant, the BATF does not have the right to either search or enter one's private residence.
923(g)(1)(D) At the election of a licensed collector, the annual inspection of records and inventory permitted under this paragraph shall be performed at the office of the Secretary designated for such inspections which is located in closest proximity to the premises where the inventory and records of such licensed collectotr are located.
#20
philasteen
-
- Board Donor
-
- 1118 posts
Long Time RKI Member
Posted 06 March 2006 - 07:45 AM
Two addendums to this thread;
- One of the best benefits to a C&R license is the ability to move your C&R guns interstate without the need for a 5320.20 form. That means you throw your Thompsons in the trunk for the annual TaTa shoot without getting BATF approval to move them.
- The ATF has no right of inspection on a C&R licensee other than the right to see your bound book. This means there is no right for ATF to see any of your guns (unless they uncover a problem in your bound book and obtain a search warrant). The bound book inspection can, at your option, be done at the field office instead of your home.
- One of the best benefits to a C&R license is the ability to move your C&R guns interstate without the need for a 5320.20 form. That means you throw your Thompsons in the trunk for the annual TaTa shoot without getting BATF approval to move them.
- The ATF has no right of inspection on a C&R licensee other than the right to see your bound book. This means there is no right for ATF to see any of your guns (unless they uncover a problem in your bound book and obtain a search warrant). The bound book inspection can, at your option, be done at the field office instead of your home.
