Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Can't Reassemble Tommy - Please Help!


  • Please log in to reply
35 replies to this topic

#21 Arthur Fliegenheimer

Arthur Fliegenheimer

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3453 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 December 2003 - 01:59 PM

Second,
Of course! The car mags would never buy a test car when they knew the manufacturer would gladly provide a "demo" for free. What the gun mags, car mags, bike mags, etc., need to do is go to a retail outlet, and make a random selection from the lott, out of the display case, what have you. I guess that is what fueled Consumer Reports to get in on the action. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to ever do a comparison test on firearms though.

It does seem absurd that an 82 year-old factory made Colt TSMG can still shoot flawlessly, while a brand new West Hurley/Kahr needs to be massaged by PK before it can do what it was built and advertised to do; shoot. Strange how sometimes an inanimate object of wood and steel is greater than the sum of its parts, i.e. Colt TSMG, but the same type of components can also be less than the sum of its parts, i.e. Kahr.

  • 0

#22 Bisley45

Bisley45

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 602 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois ( Gun Owner's Hell )
  • Interests:Thompsons, 1911's, Collect & Shoot Colt Pistols and Revolvers, American Civil War, anything that shoots

Posted 21 December 2003 - 04:43 PM

What it all comes down to is craftsmanship, the workers at Colt 80 years ago were paid well, had pride in their company and the quality control inspectors did their job.
CNC or no CNC, you have to care about what your doing, you can't pay 18year old HS dropouts who don't know an inch from a milimeter and don't care if they check parts as long as they draw a paycheck and expect quality. You also can't charge super high prices for stuff that doesn't work.
Sooner or latter someone will make a Semi thompson that works when you take it out of the box. If someone made a semi investment castings or no that worked Khar would be out of the Thompson busness.


BB
  • 0

#23 Raphael

Raphael

    New Member

  • Regular Group
  • 11 posts

Posted 28 December 2003 - 03:40 PM

Well guess what... more problems with this piece of Kahr junk!

Yesterday, I took it out for the 3rd time and I decided to try out the 10rd drum magazine. I loaded the rounds exactly as the manual states, put the top back on, and wound it 5 times (it said 4-6 times, so I figured the middle should be good). It fired the first 2 rounds with no problem, but when it tried to load the 3rd round it got jammed. The bullet part had come up into the receiver but the back was stuck down in the drum. ARGH! After fiddling around with it and moving the drum back and forth and a lot of swearing I finally got the back unjammed and it came up into the chamber. That round fired ok. Then all the other 6 rounds except 1 did the same thing. It was so frustrating. This gun is definitely not worth the >800$ paid for it. Is this a problem with not winding it enough, or just poor design?


Second, after I got it home, I opened it up to clean it. I discovered to my dismay that the entire inner area between the frame and receiver was covered with a small layer of rust. I had used a LOT of oil the last time I put it back together to ensure I would be able to slide it back off easily (see my first post in this thread about how I couldn't get it to slide back together), so there was plenty of lubrication. I had cleaned it very thoroughly and I just could not believe it. I used sandpaper and solvent and got off as much of the rust as I could and put some new blueing on. I checked it today and it looked ok (no new rust). Once again, is this a mark of poor quality metal or did I do something wrong??

Thanks for all your help.



  • 0

#24 Raphael

Raphael

    New Member

  • Regular Group
  • 11 posts

Posted 02 January 2004 - 11:15 AM

Yesterday I took the Kahr Arms 1927 A-1 Thompson out to shoot. I figured I'd try that accursed drum magazine in Tommy but this time, wind it 6 times instead of 5. Well, it jammed when loading the 2nd shot and jammed when loading the 3rd. I was very very mad and took it out after fiddling with the jammed round with a screwdriver.

Later that evening, I had my father check it out again. I loaded it and just popped out the rounds with my fingers and they were all jamming, and we could see where the hangups were. Once again, he discovered more burrs right at the opening which we suspected were causing the jams. Once again, he broke out the metal file kit and started filing. After a few minutes, he had me try loading it and they were still jamming. We did some more filing and I tried it again and some of them didn't jam. Then he did some more filing and I popped them all out and none jammed!!!!! However, it was dark at the time and I couldn't take it out and test it in the gun. But I'm pretty confident it will work now (or at least work a lot better).

I still had about 4 or 5 out of the 30 in the stick jam, so that is still a problem.

I have also noticed a small crack in the Disconnector where it bends 90 degrees, and it appears that there is a small crack in the receiver where the round ejects. I've been checking the disconnector crack carefully each time after I've shot it and it doesn't appear to be getting any worse, but I'm still concerned. If there are small cracks in those parts I can see, I wonder about the inner workings of the trigger area and the receiver...

I'm just amazed that they can sell an *unfinished* gun that the customer has to modify for such an outrageous price. I'm going to be writing a letter to Kahr to express my displeasure. wink.gif

The only thing is, it is DEAD ON accurate! I think it's the most accurate gun I have, and it was sighted in almost perfectly out of the box. I don't think any other gun I have was. Because of the accuracy, easy of aim (which I can't understand because it has a peep sight), and no recoil, it's hard to really hate it.

However, despite the accuracy, I would recommend that everyone stay away from Kahr Thompsons, unless they slash their prices. It is not worth the 800$+!


  • 0

#25 Grey Crow

Grey Crow

    RKI Member

  • Board Donor
  • 1077 posts
  • Location:North Central Pennsylvania
  • Interests:Thompson Submachine guns, computers, reptiles.

Posted 03 January 2004 - 10:39 AM

It is unfortunate that the Kahrs, and the late Auto Ordnance 27's don't normally function out of the box.

I gave 860 for mine, and yes it did take a little tweaking to make it function.
I polished the feed ramps, replaced the magazine catch and picked up a few handful's of FA magazines.

It gave me a sick feeling the first time at the range when it jammed frequently. For me my Kahr 27 was a major expenditure, but one now that I do not regret.

After modifying the magazine catch to accept FA magazines they fit very snug. The accuracy is very good, and that was a surprise to me considering the quality of the mock Lyman sights.

The gun now works flawlessly with both stick mags and L drums.
It's in PK's hands now for SBR conversion as well as a few other modifications.


It is a sign of the times, unfortunately.


  • 0

#26 junglewalk

junglewalk

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Donor
  • 424 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:by Ft.Knox,Ky.
  • Interests:The 98k rifle, MP-40 & 44; the Thompson.......reloading, HO scale military miniatures.......

Posted 03 January 2004 - 06:34 PM

Raphael; Let me fall in line here with the rest of the guys, to assure you that your 27 can be made to perform.....I too went through the fustrating hell you & everyone else has had with Kahr's beauty (beast?)..........
Let me first suggest while the gun is under the one year warrantee, to send an email to Kahr, with the serial number & tell them the firing pin broke !!!.......a month later, tell them the charging handle broke off from the fork......Then you will have a spare of each, if & when these break later....Once your one year is up, they pretend you don't exist....so get some parts now.....opps!.your extractor broke also, get a spare now, by emailing them and acting shocked ! ha!
I have had over 21 yrs with machine guns etc on tanks in the Army, and when I got my Kahr, I found out fast this experience would help to maintain & speed-up this sucker...........Yes the mags & drum all need 'adjusting', and certain things can be done to 'speed' up the bolt action to fire faster, but yet of course, still semi-action.
If you lived near Knob Creek, Ky, we could do all this together.....I have done some other things to mine, and I'll post some pics here asap...
You paid the cost of the the thing (yeah, really accurate), if you have the patience, and like the idea of working on it, you may even get to the point where you will love it, and want to SBR it. Ha...!
Go thru thr 1927A1 archives, and read..all the guys here are so smart, and have done it all.............jw rolleyes.gif
  • 0

#27 junglewalk

junglewalk

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Donor
  • 424 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:by Ft.Knox,Ky.
  • Interests:The 98k rifle, MP-40 & 44; the Thompson.......reloading, HO scale military miniatures.......

Posted 03 January 2004 - 09:08 PM

I can't figure how to add these pics to my entry above.........But here you can see i added a Springfield peep-sight, by cutting off the awful so-called 'v' notch and adding the peep. It aids in quick trgt/sight alignment, and I do it w/both eyes open...I got this idea from one of the Tommy shooters who always goes thru the Jungle Walk with his 1928. It will adjust for close-in & all the way out to 150 yds; also left and right w/knob.........
I also removed the butt plate and replaced it with a Springfield butt plate that I filed & bent to fit the Kahr stock. I also cut a nice big hole in the walnut for an oiler to go in the little hatch..........
When the firing pin breaks, do not throw away...Email me, and I will send you a pic of how to cut down the broken one, and make it better than it was. (right now, email Kahr and tell them your f/pin broke, so you have a spare; then, oh, your extractor broke next month too.)
user posted image
  • 0

#28 junglewalk

junglewalk

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Donor
  • 424 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:by Ft.Knox,Ky.
  • Interests:The 98k rifle, MP-40 & 44; the Thompson.......reloading, HO scale military miniatures.......

Posted 03 January 2004 - 09:21 PM

here is the rear sight...I wish I could put more than one pic w/each entry.....jw

Attached Files


  • 0

#29 junglewalk

junglewalk

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Donor
  • 424 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:by Ft.Knox,Ky.
  • Interests:The 98k rifle, MP-40 & 44; the Thompson.......reloading, HO scale military miniatures.......

Posted 03 January 2004 - 09:27 PM

Here is a rear view of it..........When my charging handle broke off the fork, I ordered the rounded one Doug Richardson makes....He is recovering from catera/eye operations, and will resume production soon......A replacement charge handle is about $26. from Kahr.......It never should have broken...jw

Attached Files


  • 0

#30 Zamm

Zamm

    Respected Member & Artist

  • Regular Group
  • 831 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, New York
  • Interests:Thompsons, and all their goodies!<br>Obsolete Victorian Photomechanical processes,<br>Etching, Engraving and all Printmaking,<br>Entomology, specializing in Coleoptera,<br>Arachnology, specializing in Theraphosidae.

Posted 04 January 2004 - 01:33 PM

It really amazes me that a company can get away with this crap.
They are obviously using the wrong materials and then not finnishing them right. Man o Man that would drive me nuts!
I have a early West Hurley 27A1 (1975) and straight out of the box, it shot thousands of rounds up until a year ago when something let go internally. PK has it now and all is well.
Could you imagine if a car maker produced a product like this?!
Cheers, Zamm
  • 0

#31 Arthur Fliegenheimer

Arthur Fliegenheimer

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3453 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 04 January 2004 - 01:55 PM

Zamm,
In the 1970's, Detroit car manufacturers were indifferent to quality control. They took American buyers for granted and figured they did not have any recourse. Enter Japan and Germany. As long as people continue to patronize Kahr, nothing will change. Having adjustments made after market by PK does not solve the problem, it only enables Kahr to stay in business.

  • 0

#32 Zamm

Zamm

    Respected Member & Artist

  • Regular Group
  • 831 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, New York
  • Interests:Thompsons, and all their goodies!<br>Obsolete Victorian Photomechanical processes,<br>Etching, Engraving and all Printmaking,<br>Entomology, specializing in Coleoptera,<br>Arachnology, specializing in Theraphosidae.

Posted 04 January 2004 - 03:50 PM

Arthur,
Bingo!

Phil,
Great idea.

I can imagine the frustration of dropping $800 on one of these and then going nuts trying to make it work.
Perhaps a poll on people who have had to get there Kahr's repeatedly repaired, and/or after market tuning such as by PK?
If some numbers where presented, it would be a start. It sure sounds like everyone out of the box has problems.

Cheers, Zamm
  • 0

#33 Raphael

Raphael

    New Member

  • Regular Group
  • 11 posts

Posted 06 January 2004 - 02:23 PM

I'm still pretty new here, and I have 2 questions that might be stupid. But if you don't ask you'll never know.

1. What/who is PK?

2. What is "the Jungle Walk"?

After reading about all these other problems (firing pin, etc. breaking) I'm really concerned. I'd be more than willing to write down my experiences in more detail if a lawsuit is brought to help us win. wink.gif

As my friend said, Kahr's motto should be, "Some filing required".


  • 0

#34 Walter63a

Walter63a

    RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 1430 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Guns (Thompsons, Lugers, and Walthers mostly), History, Politics, Education, Nature, etc.

Posted 06 January 2004 - 05:01 PM

Raphael, PK is Paul Krogh (hope I spelled the last name right). He is a gunsmith (Class II, manufacturer) who lives out in Colorado. He knows and loves all types of Thompsons. He even works on the 'black sheep' of the family, the Kahr semiautomatics! biggrin.gif smile.gif He is a member of this board and, if he can't make your Thompson run, then it probably can't be done. blink.gif smile.gif ohmy.gif laugh.gif Junglewalk is a member of this board and it is also a shooting trail, I believe at Knob Creek. biggrin.gif Regards, Walter
  • 0

#35 TAB

TAB

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 89 posts

Posted 07 January 2004 - 11:03 AM

To be sure Raphael, I had many of the same problems as yourself. The drum problem in particular is familiar, but rather than try and fix it, I just sent the whole works to PK in Colorado. I have now a reliable gun that I also like quite a bit. Yes, it costs money, but in a way its an investment, besides I'm happy with the gun now, its not just some piece of mass produced junk anymore. I didn't trust kahr to fix it properly either, which mayn't be fair, but when you release a product as buggy as an MS operating system, you must expect people to look askance.


  • 0

#36 junglewalk

junglewalk

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Donor
  • 424 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:by Ft.Knox,Ky.
  • Interests:The 98k rifle, MP-40 & 44; the Thompson.......reloading, HO scale military miniatures.......

Posted 07 January 2004 - 06:11 PM

Raphael; Since 1989, the 'Jungle Walk' has been a sub-mg course I run at Knob Creek rg for the owner, during the Machine Gun Shoots, in Apr & Oct each year.My Webpage not my web page,but the range's.
I live 10 minutes from there, and spend a lot of time there also..Here is the explaination of the course. Anyone can try it !.....jw laugh.gif

Attached Files


  • 0