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Savage Commercial 1928 Thompson


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#1 Roger in AZ

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Posted 27 November 2003 - 11:45 AM

How were the receivers marked on the Savage Commercial 1928 Thompson's in regards to manufacture and model number?

Thanks

Roger
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#2 gijive

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Posted 27 November 2003 - 04:07 PM

Hi Roger,

Savage Commercial guns would have the designation Model of 1928, no US or A1 after the Model and serial number. On the right side of the receiver the patent dates would be closer to the ejection port and the Auto-Ordnance Corp. engraving would have the New York, N.Y. address at the rear of the receiver.

The 1928A1 model would have the patent dates closest to the rear of the receiver and the Auto-Ordnance Corp., Bridgeport, CT address would be closest to the ejection port.

Most early Savage guns would have knurled fire selection and safety levers and knurled actuator.

Hope this helps.
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#3 Sgt

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Posted 27 November 2003 - 05:41 PM

gijive--
You may remember me posting pictures of my Savage. How would you explain the fact that it has the US and the A-1 designation, but has no military proofs.

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#4 gijive

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Posted 28 November 2003 - 09:35 AM

Hi Sgt,

I think we discussed this already, didn't we? There are a couple scenarios that could explain your post. First, If I recall you haven't examined the gun in person, correct? The gun may have been refinished and the prook marks are difficult to see in photos, or the gun may have been one of the leftover receivers that Numerich acquired and the gun was put together from parts and registered. I don't recall, does the grip frame serial number match the receiver? If so what is the serial number range?

You will be able to determine the status of the gun better when you receive it. Maybe the dealer can tell you from the original registration form when it was registered, i.e. 1968 Amnesty, etc. He should at least be able to tell you who he acquired the gun from. Then contact the previous owner to track down the history trail.

Any gun with US Model of 1928 A1 would have been destined for a military contract, whether it was actually inspected and delivered or not. Check your gun carefully when you get it, if the US and A1 appear stamped in a different font style then it was originally a Savage made Model of 1928 that was ultimately made part of a military contract. If the US Model of 1928A1 is uniformly roll stamped on the receiver then it was made at the Savage plant for a military contract.

The early Savage Commercial models were not stamped US Model of 1928A1, that was strictly a US military designation
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#5 Sgt

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Posted 28 November 2003 - 10:32 AM

GI Jive--
Thanks for addressing this again. Yes, we did talk about the question of no military proofs before. But I was still unclear on one point. If it was remade from military parts by Numerich, wouldn't it bear the NAC prefix in the serial number? Instead, the serial number is S- 4854** Or, did Numerich keep the Savage serial number, when they put these parts together?

Yes, I finally got to spend a long afternoon with my baby. It definitely appears to have a very old refinishing. I looked over the parts very closely and could find no other proofs expect the GEG. The US Model A-1 has a uniform roll stamped. The grip frame does have matching serial number.

Unfortunately the original amnesty owner is deceased. Formerly owned by Keaton Keller, physicist for the Manhattan Project. The seller, who purchased it from Dr. Keller, thought that the Dr. had somehow acquired this piece from his place of work.

I have no idea how much longer it will take my transfer to process. There was a problem with my form and it was returned. The corrected form was sent back about a month ago. I'll post pictures and the amnesty registration when I finally receive my transfer.

Sorry Roger, didn't mean to commandeer this thread.
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#6 gijive

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Posted 28 November 2003 - 11:05 AM

Sgt,

Well it should have had the Numerich NAC addition to the serial number if it was a put together gun from parts, but I was just speculating that maybe one of the left over guns was registered without the NAC.

I remember now that your gun was owned by the physicist for the Manhatten Project. Sounds like one or more guns were obtained directly from Savage during wartime production and somehow ended up in the possession of those responsible for the Manhatten project. That would explain the lack of military proof marks.

I guess we'll never know but it makes sense that the gun was amnety registered. The military had no need to register the guns with ATF and a WWII Vet bring back would also have to have been eventually registered in order to be transferred legally to you.

Just take satisfaction in the fact that you have an interesting and unusual gun.
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#7 gijive

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Posted 28 November 2003 - 05:09 PM

PhilOhio,

I was trying to say essentially the same thing you did. I realize the US Model 1928A1 was done at the factory. The fact that Sgt's gun doesn't have the military acceptance stamps indicates the gun wasn't sent to the military and ended up in some other Government agencies hands.

My original point was that the gun was manufactured after the military standardized the US Model 1928A1 and wasn't an earlier model Savage 1928 sometimes referred to as a Savage Commercial by collectors.
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#8 Sgt

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 07:45 PM

Guys, Thanks for the clarification. That makes a lot of sense. The seller was confused on this issue, since he could find no military acceptance stamps. I feel fortunate to I have a Thompson with a little mystique.
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#9 Roger in AZ

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Posted 02 December 2003 - 09:11 PM

What was the original finish on a Savage Commercial Thompsons? Were they blued like the Colt's?

Thanks

Roger

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#10 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 02 December 2003 - 09:34 PM

Yes. Commercial TSMG's were blued.
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#11 full auto 45

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Posted 03 December 2003 - 07:02 AM

Now back to this old question. Were'nt all Thompsons blued that left the factory originaly? And then Parkerized when reworked?
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#12 Balder

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Posted 03 December 2003 - 12:15 PM

Interesting story, I also have a Savage 1928, S-245XX. Mine has no US military acceptance stamps either - but it has a British one (the "crow's foot") since it was in the first batch of 10,000 Thompsons to be shipped to the UK in the spring of 1940. Could it be that Sgt's gun was also sold to the UK during WW2 and thereby avoiding US acceptance?

Regards,

Balder
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#13 TSMG28

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Posted 03 December 2003 - 12:59 PM

Balder,

The scenario laid out by PhiOhio and GIjive is the most likely. If Sgt's gun had gone to Britain like yours, it would have the Brit proof marks.

Regards

Roger
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#14 Balder

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Posted 03 December 2003 - 02:59 PM

Per US definition the Thompsons being sold to the UK in 1940 were civilian (this was before lend-lease), meaning they didn't have US military acceptance stamps. Once received in the UK, the Brits put their "crow foot" acceptance stamp on whatever gun they purchased/made/received. However, this was often done in a hurry and the stamps are often very hard to see. On my 1928 the stamp is on the right side of the receiver, about an inch behind the barrel, and it can easily be mistaken for something else. Sgt, have you looked closely all over your Thompson for any stamps and markings?

Regards,

Balder
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#15 PK.

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Posted 03 December 2003 - 03:04 PM

The more common term associated with the mark you describe as a crows foot is "Broad Arrow".

The British have used the Broad Arrow proof for many decades.

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#16 Sgt

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Posted 03 December 2003 - 03:17 PM

Balder--
Thanks for that information. All this is so helpful. I did look at it closely and didn't see any other stamps, neither did the previous owner see any stamps, which is why he thought it was commercial. When I get it in my possession, I will strip it down and go over it with a glass.
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#17 Balder

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Posted 03 December 2003 - 03:28 PM

Yes PK, I am very much aware of that fact. The reason why I didn't use that term is that I was, and still am, uncertain about to what extent the US gun public is familiar with that particular expression.

Balder
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#18 gijive

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Posted 03 December 2003 - 11:59 PM

Hi Balder,

Your gun is an early Savage gun with a low serial number and marked as Model of 1928. Sgt's gun is a later production model gun with a six digit serial number and is marked US Model of 1928A1. The Lend-Lease guns would have been marked US Model of 1928A1. Your gun is one of the early purchases direct from Auto-Ordnance and is marked as you describe as Model of 1928.

Sgt.,

Your gun shouldn't have British Proofs because they would have been apparent when you examined the gun, especially on the barrel and near the front of the receiver. If you couldn't see the US Military proof marks you wouldn't have been able to miss the British proof marks.

While attending the FBI Academy in the late 1980's I observed several 1928A1 Thompsons in their vault. They were marked US Model of 1928A1, however, I was not observant enough to notice if they had US Miltary acceptance proofs. I was interested in Colt Thompsons at the time and wasn't familiar with the miltary acceptance stamps and wish now that I had paid more attention. The gun I fired was a Savage made gun, but I didn't record the serial number. This gun and others in their vault may have been issued directly to the FBI during wartime production or may have been issued post-war, in which case they may have had miltary proof marks.

The point is, your gun is legitimate and registered. I would try contacting the family of the deceased physicist that originally owned the gun and maybe you can learn something from them about it's origin. I believe you're going to have to do some further research to satisfy your curiosity.

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#19 Balder

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Posted 04 December 2003 - 06:38 AM

Lol PhilOhio - sorry if I stepped on some toes regarding acceptance mark terminology, I should have thought of the possibility that British surplus firearms were sold in other parts of the world as well.

Balder
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#20 Bisley45

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Posted 04 December 2003 - 07:24 AM

I'm not sure when the British started using the Braod arrow acceptance mark but I remember reading the British were cutting it in tree's they wanted to use as ships masts prior to the American revolution.

Should go on game show with all the useless trivia in my head....

BB
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