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How Many Transferrable Usgi Thompsons Are There?


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#1 kyle

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 09:07 AM

How many of the currently transferrable 28/M1/M1A1 TSMGs truely originated with the military? How did they get into public circulation? I'm aware of amnesty "bring backs" but was that the only source? Thanks!

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#2 full auto 45

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 11:39 AM

I know that some M1's were sold to the police departments as mine was. Mine went from WWII to the B&O railroad police in 1946 to a police department in West Virginia in 1964 or 1965. It was amnesty registered in 1968 by the then police chief. I bought it earlier this year. Many WWII guns sold to PD's were not registered in '68 and until the next amnesty period, they will have to stay there or go to other PD's. But remember that the registered guns fall under a "tax" privacy deal and so much information cannot be let out.
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#3 SecondAmend

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 01:26 PM

I've wondered how many of those $97.50 M1A1 dewats (many that just had a lead plug in the barrel) that were sold mail-order were re-watted and amnesty registered.

Probably no way to tell.

I was once told by a former FBI agent that in the 60's and early 70's, many "bring backs" were turned in to the FBI by concerned parents of recalcitrant teenagers. The parents feared the teenagers would get the MGs use them for "The Revolution." The agent indicated the guns were destroyed.


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#4 USMC-2-USN

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 11:30 PM

I know of atleast one biggrin.gif

I asked the same question a few weeks ago...and received no answer. It is known that there are approximately 700 WH M1's, 1000 commemoratives, and a few thousand 1928 WH's

Out of the 15000 colts made most survived in the form of either 21's or 21/28's

Out of the 1.4 million thompsons made during WW2 I would estimate that 1.3 million either went to the brits, got lost in the drink, or lost in combat. the other 100,000 probably ended up in the US. Quite a few of the 100,000 were dumped or destroyed or are sitting inbetween walls or in attics.

There were approximately 18000 registrations during 1968 but that includes all registrations...i would estimate approximately 5000 thompsons in 1968

Several thousand more in the form of rewats, rewelds, and numerich, etc...from then until 1986

i know after WW2 they were sold out of magazines and out of armories for little more than nothing and subsequently registered...but i would say an OVERWHELMING majority are rusting away in boneyards, in the drink, or are awaiting an upcoming amnesty

I would say of the approx 120,000 transferable MGs there are about 25000 thompsons ao all variations

Take it for what it is worth
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#5 hawksnest

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Posted 15 December 2003 - 10:01 AM

USMC-2-USN: I mean no offense but I respectfully disagree with your estimates. SecondAmend's question was about dewats. At one time derwats did not need to be registered. I remember seeing all types of unregistered dewats at gun shows in the early 60's. The Fed's discovered individuals were reactavating the guns so the Fed's changed the rules and required dewats to be registered but the transfer tax ($200.00) was not required. Any dewat that is not currently registered is illegal to possess and can't be registered. When I purchased my dewat in 2001 it was registered on a form 5 (no transfer tax) and transferred to me tax free (form 5). Your estimate on the percentage that Thompsons represent of the total number of registered machineguns equates to over 20%. I respectfully disagree. one in five? No way! blink.gif
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#6 USMC-2-USN

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Posted 15 December 2003 - 10:55 AM

So of the 18000 registered in 1968 how many would you estimate were thompsons?...though in retrospect i think it is a little off at the time i was considering the following:

Remember, that includes everything from 21's to M1A1's that were not kosher for the past "x" amount of years

Also, registration included serviceable thompsons like mine as well as dewats like yours...also ALL registrations in 1968 were tax free...even servicable ones!

You don't think there are 25000 thompsons of all variations in the registry?
Here are numbers i have heard: approx 25,000 MACS, 20,000 M16, 12,000 HK, 6,000 UZI, ????? thompsons...those are the most common type of MGs so i think there could quite easily be 25000 thompson variants

This incluses everything from 21's to M1a1's...also Pearl, WH, etc...and registered DEWATS that coulf be reactivated on a form 1

What do you think?
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#7 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 15 December 2003 - 11:09 AM

QUOTE
"Out of the 15000 colts made most survived in the form of either 21's or 21/28's."



USMC,
I am not sure what you mean by this, but the most recent guesstimates on total registered/transferable Colt Thompsons in the U.S. is around 1,800.

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#8 SecondAmend

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Posted 16 December 2003 - 07:00 PM

If I recall, on the prior message board a thread had the estimate of registered'21s in the 1800 - 2200 range. Seems a shame that out of 15,000 so few now exist in the U.S. (Murray has some down under) in transferrable status.
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#9 USMC-2-USN

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Posted 16 December 2003 - 11:28 PM

My bad...i did not realize the number of 21s was so pathetic...i guess that justifies the outlandish prices!

I stand by the rest of my estimates

Thanks Arthur for the correction
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#10 John Jr

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Posted 17 December 2003 - 12:17 AM

Aurthur is wrong. There are more like 3K Colts out there. I know from A VERY rep. class 3 who owns many and has a good take on it.

This guy has been doing research since the 50's on it. He would know.

Jr
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#11 USMC-2-USN

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Posted 17 December 2003 - 07:42 AM

Still, with only 3000 Colts out there...one in five made it into transferable status...that is horrible!

I like to be optimistic and tell myself that someone has 'the motherload' f transferable thompsons sitting around collecting dust...and right before they die they will release them at decent prices. I would still like to have a 21 or 28 to keep my M1A1 company in the safe...i might even go so far as to trade one of my HK autosears for one!

So what do you RKIs think of my 25,000 transferable thompson (all variations) estimate...overly optimistic?

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#12 giantpanda4

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Posted 17 December 2003 - 08:33 AM

You know, this data DOES exist. Since the Govt has a record of ALL transferrable TSMGs, they should have the TOTAL number of them, right?

Wouldn't it be nice to also know the breakdown of what models they are?

Anyone out there know how to get that info? My guess is the right person can do it in a couple of keystrokes!

The only question is how many are still in the rafters, etc. We need a new amnesty period and amybe we can get a number for those too!
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#13 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 17 December 2003 - 09:48 AM

John Jr,
Knowing your fondness for polls, perhaps we could do a survey of Class III dealers and owners and arrive at an estimate of registered Colt TSMG's. Unless the dealer you know sold 3,000 Colt's, or has access to IRS/ATF files, the accepted figure agreed on by Cox, Herigstad, Dillon, Hill, Ballou, etc, is still below 2000.

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#14 hawksnest

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Posted 17 December 2003 - 07:37 PM

Arthur is right! Less than 2000 Colts are registered in the opinions of the experts. USMC-2-USN's guestimate of 25,000 thompsons (all F/A varities) out of the approximately 120,000 transferable machineguns can't be even close. That would mean about one in five is a thompson. What happened to all the tube guns, stens, mac's,Brens, MP-181, Mg-34, MP-35, mg-42, Mp-38, Mp-40, Mp-34, mp-28II, mp-18, Browning 1917s & 1919s, Browning 50's,mini' guns, Carl Gustave (K) & Port Siads, reisings, Mg08/15,Marlin's, DeKnight's, Lewis, Schwarzlose, Skoda, ZB26, ZB30, Soumi, Chauchat, Darne, Chatellerault, Bergman 1910, MG-13, MG-15, Solothurn 29, FG-42, Nambu, Villar perosa, Erma, Bergman 34, MP-41, PPSH-41, Beretta 38/42,Grease gun, Mat 49, Owen, F.A.L., BAR, Uzi, L1A1, Steyr-Augs, Lancasters, Sterling, Vickers, Hotchkiss, Besa, Chinease type 56, AK-47, Czech 58, Czech 23, Czech 25, Czech 61, Madsen, MG-3, HK33, MPK, MP-5, HK-21, HK-33, HK-54, HK-13,Mauser 32, MP-43, MP-44, Stg-45, Hungarian 31 & 48, Stoner, M-14, M-16, M-60, and even full auto shotguns! My apologies to those who's guns I failed to mention. Thompson equals one in five? blink.gif Crap! mad.gif
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#15 craig101

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Posted 17 December 2003 - 07:51 PM

I know of someone who has around 70 Colt Thompsons. don't know the guy, but I know a dealer who deals with this guy. I guess most of these Colt's are in nice condition, the not as good condition Colts have some historical significance to them, IE who carried them and such. so they won't go cheap someday.

other than that, i think J Curtis Earl had ONE HELL OF A COLLECTION of Thompsons. I've seen old pics of his guns and he had racks and racks of Thommies. if you know of him, they weren't cheap either wink.gif
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#16 John Jr

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Posted 17 December 2003 - 10:49 PM

How many do you own Arthur? That might narrow it down a bit.

Jr

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#17 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 17 December 2003 - 10:53 PM

I currently own one very late serial numbered Colt Navy. I am not hording them.
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#18 John Jr

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Posted 17 December 2003 - 11:02 PM

Cool! I will trade you Colt for Colt. Wanna talk?

Jr
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#19 hawksnest

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Posted 18 December 2003 - 08:54 AM

Craig101: I have paperwork that traces my 1928A1 and my M1A1 back to J. Curtis Earl.
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#20 21 smoker

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Posted 18 December 2003 - 10:31 AM

HEY GUYS; SPEAKING OF J.CURTIS EARL,THE `MIDAS THOMPSON` JUST RESURFACED. I SAW IT AT THE NASLEEM MUSEUM IN DUNEDIN,FLA. SATURDAY. WHAT A SPECTACULAR DISPLAY!!!!!! WM. DOUGLAS SHOWED IT TO ME AND IT IS BEAUTIFUL. HE TOLD ME THAT A PREVIOUS HAD SHOT TOO! WHAT A THRILL! IF ANY BODY OUT THERE IS IN THE AREA IN NEXT FEW MONTHS CHECK IT OUT,GREAT PLACE TO VISIT AND JOIN...WONDERFUL VOLINTEERS,WAY COOL STUFF!!! KEEPEM` SMOKIN` out.
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