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#1 colt21a

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 12:40 PM

ever notice somebody posts whats it worth a hundred people chime in............ most people know what they paid and what they want for something,wha..we all turn stupid instantly.......???

and build up a lttle talk on a colt 21 get a few people interested and watch the price climb...........these guns have been selling for over 30 years.........and rising why....all the hype,and some people decided a neat gun i think i will collect them,and get my five buddies also to collect them...........if the latest fandango/cornblower came on the market and everybody had to have one, but you had to sell the colt quick to raise cash to get the new item,the prices would fall.....

its human gun nature, and for most at least for those who have been doing it 20 30 or 40 years......... very few have just stuck to one gun for that long,oh yes i know exceptions to every rule...........

and if anybody wanted to be gun savvy,they collected them all..not what you pick up on the net for info,or read smiths small arms 1964 edition {29 times} wink!!

and to the guy who bought a colt in 1985 for 3,000.00 and has not lived in a cave since then,they know darn well whats its worth today,{maybe worth is the wrong word}final sale price to willing buyer to cut the check}

heck i have a boat anchor with no boat attached......it has a story behind it.a great white crapped on it.......is it worth now let me seee!!12,000.00


so it will be the constant debate,mine is this,your model is a military its only 8,000 you have a wes hurlee!! oh not too much market for those................and so on and so-on..................................who really gives a darn............
and if a person decides to sell one great,
because how in the heck do you think anybody else would get one then???

if i horded all the ones i had and curtis earl,roger cox,terry william's and a few other's..there would be 1,000 less colts on the market..........

it was business,just like colt and auto-ord to make MONEY!!!!

we have made it the cult following,maybe like harleys>i hate that analogy<

so we are to blame for the price???

a collector maybe pays too much,he wants his money back,and resell's for more,and it keeps going.........

so when does it stop.................don't ask don't tell.......don't sell.......................everybody right now keep what they have............no matter what the finances are........just lock it up.............

need money for school, screw it,getting a divore screw it!!

need a new car, screw it buying a harley, screw it buying a new home ,screw it.dying of some disease and need the medication,screw it{i will buy the colt from your widow}

do not buy another thompson item or sell one........ now let's see how long that will last.

and nobody will have any value's or stupid questions of how much is it worth???

wait let me check my tommy g.... book of values written by somebody who owned one and saw ten,{and stated its the best i have ever seen}
i love that remark............

oh! and to the guy who really don't know the worth......don't sell it don't worry....

and if you really have to move it,then sell it for what you paid on the last car you bought and appreciate that by 20% but then take out -5% for the dirty comp.does not apply to ring sites.......

and post it here for all to see, and then the feeding frenzy will evolve..............

dealers will whore out the mom's............to get it.........and make MONEY........................

as i wise old dude once told me.

take a big window frame,and frame $20,000 or whatever you paid on something,and walk by it everyday.......you can't spend or touch it,just look!!!and enjoy.........its the same thing................ and we all have done it and still do everyday................{ i was the old dude that made that up}thats the nature of the "colt beast"

and it must be fed everyday to the last................


then gets sold off to the highest bidder...............

or unless the fandango/squirter 2009 is the hot ticket.........wink.....have fun guys............. my little read for the end of 2003........take care ron
colt21a.................
can you tell i was bored out of my freakin mind on monday???
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#2 giantpanda4

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 03:30 PM

Ron,

I hate the Harley reference as well. But... did you know there is not a 4 year wait on them anymore? You can go right in and drop '21 money and ride out on a V-rod.

I think all of the stockbrokers who bought black leather and Harleys are now turning towards their next fad. But I still love the tons of them who get into costume and group together... to be individualistic. You can always tell them - their leather is new.

Maybe the same thing is happening to tsmg buyers, the investors who are not shooters/collectors or even gun people. What is their next fad? Let me know now... I can get in on the ground floor!

I would be curious to know what the demographics are of the "average" tsmg buyer. Of course we have to break this down by model. You guys who are dealers, are you selling more and more to non-gun people - who just want to make a buck? I am sure they love their treasure, just like the Harley people, but if you offer them a bigger buck it is yours.

But soon - the bubble bursts... just like the collector cars in the '90s. The good thing that stood up about the cars was that there are only so many truly ultra collectable cars (same applies to 21s, etc.) and they did hold their value though the rest fell 60% in 1 year.

Being new to Thompsons, but a lifetime shooter, I find too many parralels with the Harleys and other fads. Hope this is the case in a way, I still need to buy my 28!

Mondays are boring, aren't they?
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#3 colt21a

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 03:58 PM

yes the nail on the head,when i went back to chi-town in june,i was offered a new in crate v-rod for 17,500.00

oak lawn harley.

i passed on it,in fact i just passed on a nice colt for the same price. you see i have a nice 21a colt cased set.oh!yes it's mentioned in a few book's and in rogers ole 74 catalog....and pictured in it, the 21a above the 21ac in black and white pic,with number mentioned.
{after going thru over 100 colts........}and military 28's and wes hurlee's..........i have nothing to prove.it was fun and buck's............also
a real nice mgc1921a metal replica.the wife thought it was a cool x-mas gift ten years ago for me.....{and it was}for a guy who had the real thing's.............and i sold them also under "chicago typewriter company"

i enjoyed them for alot of years...............and still do......

i plan on having a 27 sbr semi>pk special done up........for a nice cheap shooter and display gun...............{well probably not that cheap}

i am trying to figure that out myself the next hot toy.....then i can make the really big buck's.......... maybe a thompson black plastic full size that shoots water?wink!!!will they buy them for a 1,000.00???

maybe because i can spread the word the savings of not buying the real deal for 50,000................and they can have a look-a like and not worry about theft,insurance,oiling it down,paperwork...............ad-infintum[curtis earl's words}

i destroyed the ak market and svd's dragunov's so will start on the tommygun's................back to my old haunt's.......and will go to the grave that i never got the chicago tribune gun............{darn}

its still locked in the book depository basement vault at cantigny,in wheaton...and the chicago bank guns are still on lasalle street.

and the beat up capone gun in fat tony's cheese shop on taylor street..........

man can i tell you tales serching and finding these thing's.......why bore you with the facts............

i have to zap up the dvd and get paul muni in "scarface going"or good ole bob taylor in bataan...
i had that mgm gun.............and yes it was reblued a few times.........still nice in its original m.g.m.case.boy if that gun could talk..........

well e-nuff of the ya-da ya-da.............i want to hear all the other good stories around here,i am listening............

take care,thanks for chiming in..........colt 21a
or ron


p.s.
i refuse to pay 8,000 to 10,000 for a military and blast the crap out of it.thats just me!!!{not everybody else}

maybe a post sample yeah why not.....
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#4 craig101

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 05:03 PM

man can i tell you tales serching and finding these thing's.......why bore you with the facts............

RON! PLEASE tell some tales!!!!!!!!!!!! i love the posts you wrote up on AKs in the past.

i destroyed the ak market and svd's dragunov's so will start on the tommygun's................

what do you mean you destroyed the AK market? come on, come on. stories!

I want to be bored with the facts.

btw, there are 2 pre sample Colt Thompsons in a PD in my state. dunno the exact PD, only a general area. one is rusted as it sat in the trunk of a squad in a wet blanket for a while. the other isn't bad. so i hear....
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#5 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 06:23 PM

Ron,
That is pretty neat that you still have #206 depicted in the Cox catalog. Hey, what is your assessment of the Colt TSMG 1921A #167 shown in the Rimfire video and acclaimed as the "#1 most perfect Thompson in the U.S."


As far as Harley's go, the riders who want to distance themselves from the Wall Street wannabe bikers sucked in by HD dealers, now have several outlets (Jesse James, Tuttle's, etc) to acquire a V-Twin HD engine chopper that doesn't resemble a "garbage wagon."

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#6 colt21a

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 06:52 PM

QUOTE (craig101 @ Dec 22 2003, 05:03 PM)
man can i tell you tales serching and finding these thing's.......why bore you with the facts............

RON!  PLEASE tell some tales!!!!!!!!!!!!  i love the posts you wrote up on AKs in the past. 

i destroyed the ak market and svd's dragunov's so will start on the tommygun's................

what do you mean you destroyed the AK market?  come on, come on.  stories! 

I want to be bored with the facts.

btw,  there are 2 pre sample Colt Thompsons in a PD in my state.  dunno the exact PD, only a general area.  one is rusted as it sat in the trunk of a squad in a wet blanket for a while.  the other isn't bad.  so i hear....

well when i started to buy them up prices started climbing,same with {dragunovs}svd's i went through 26 of them,and just sold my last three this week,even ole jerry at recon just bought one,
{little known fact}jerry had bought some of the best tommygun stuff from me for years........and still has it in his private stash.............he will deny it>don't ask.....

i have the shipping records to prove otherwise.

craig try and get those samples worth shooting for i guess,i missed the will county #3105 gun,but it was a boat anchor,

alot of guns i saw thirty years ago somehow magically became better over the years.............did i ever tell you my buttstock tale at vollmers........??i think we switched out stocks on forty colt gun's wink!!!

when i get a little more time will post some goodies here........i have to go pack up these drags and ready for shipping on friday..........before the guys start busting my hump about not getting the goods..........

another three happy campers....will get some nice gun's........

seee ya!! take care ron
colt 21a


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#7 colt21a

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 07:21 PM

QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Dec 22 2003, 06:23 PM)
Ron,
That is pretty neat that you still have #206 depicted in the  Cox catalog. Hey, what is your assessment of the Colt TSMG 1921A #167 shown in the Rimfire video and acclaimed as the "#1 most perfect Thompson in the U.S."


As far as Harley's go, the riders who want to distance themselves from the Wall Street wannabe bikers sucked in by  HD dealers, now have several outlets (Jesse James, Tuttle's, etc) to acquire a V-Twin HD engine chopper that doesn't resemble a "garbage wagon."

arthur or is that "the dutchman}??

i did see #167 at jimmy falters house in the mid eighties,on his pool table in the basement, and all the paperwork,he had just gotten it,on a sale trade deal.

i think i know what the deal was on it and the final price,a gun and cash.sworn to secrecy on the price......

and i know the gun he sold to move it
i brokered the sale of it for him.{well gave him the guy who gave him the cash for it upfront}so that helped.

the wood was great.my only question i asked and at that time i looked at about 500 thompsons.was why were the rivets on the lyman rear sight not blued??and was the rear sight ever taken off??
as you know under the sight the receiver is blued,and rear sight added later.........

and the only reason i could determine upon any restoration job,rear sight is to be removed, to properly polish rec.blue salts,and all that jazz.any restorartion expert can fill in all the sordid details'.

and the rivets were grey like in the white.that maybe but why??was the rear sight off the gun..at one point??was it a 30's reblue job.or had a problem and went back to colt who know's.......

i was told that was the way it came in............
and of course jimmy was not selling and very proud of the history of it.......

i told him i would have to track history back to all owners,and if it went to any delaers in between the family ownership............i never did get the answer on that......
also near the serial number on rec,small patina starting up...and a couple of minute dots perculating to rust.
i showed him that,and he said i will not touch that......and just leave it alone,and oil it down heavy....i was not allowed to break open the gun,to see wear or marks inside the rec.{boy that can tell you alot}even under the ejector or extractor........

so i said jim very nice gun............so i just had stared at a 99% gun.with great wood.or the best restorartion job on the planet.with in the grey rear sight rivets.........

i would have paid 20,000 to own the gun ,with all the neat history,which i saw,even the postcard wanting the hardware store to sell colt's........i know he sold the drum that came with it,since i sold jimmy a new one in a new mills case with strap.......

i heard he had it for sale for 100,000 plus something....

i am sure he sold it already........... if i was the buyer.......i would do further research............the only thing that ever bothered me on that gun was the rivet's............

but i am sure all the thompson experts out there,will be in defense of it that this was or is thee only gun on the planet new out of box unfired...........i had a few close to that......and i had the chicago trib gun in my hand...........

that could be the closet,since the col.ordered it from auto ord,shipped direct to the newspaper,and he salted it away in the case at the mansion...........in wheaton, il.

and never heard from anybody that the col.ever fired it.....he just wanted one to protect himself from capone....funny thing he bought it in 1934...capone was on his way out by then,i think...............

that is my history with gun #167..i would have bought it in 1985 for 10,000.00 but it was not for sale.....

it has a real great and nice history,

there are others out there not as nice, but full of history......if anybody can explain the "rivets" fire away.i still want the answer.................take care,ron
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#8 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 08:08 PM

Ron,
You sure don't dissapoint! Is it possible that a buyer would pay $10K back in the 80's and not field strip the Thompson to confirm that the interior wear matches the prisitne condition of the exterior? Does it count if a Colt TSMG were factory reblued back in the 20's, or 30's? One would wonder what sort of calamity would have demanded the gun be sent back so soon for an overhaul. The fact that the rivets on the Lyman were not blued is a head scratch. And one would think the buyer would have ben given a very satisfactory answer to this riddle before owning a piece represented to be 100% original. I sure am at a loss to explain it other than that the Lyman it came with might have had some edge wear that would hold back the impact of the rest of the condition of the gun and so was replaced. But then the replacement Lyman sight would have had to be Colt blued, and not black oxide. If that was the case, then why not blue the rivets also? Unless that would have required blueing after the rivets were attached, and the added blue to the rivets would not match the original blueing?

On the other hand, if in say 1985 $10K was the price for the "finest Colt Thompson in America," how did we get to today's figures where Vito's "boat anchor" advertised on "GunBroker" has a $21K reserve? Condition rating has become some sort of Rorschach test, I guess.

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#9 colt21a

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 09:25 PM

yes arthur i can't explain the new pricing at all.it seemed when some of the new guys get these,they figure aw man!! i paid 12,000 14,000 now i gotta get 20,000

then the next guy bumps it, funny how the two fn 249's vollmer offered me in 1989,that came from bill wittstein he owed fred some bread then and fred got the guns>......offered at 19,000...i passed on them and bought three colts from him.sold them for about 23,000..and now those same two freakin gun's{m-249's} the guys are askings 115,000,,boy!!did i lose out,and pre-samples at that............go figure..........

its all in the game,and still no real answer on those rear rivets........if it was redone by colt,its still original......

but past history i guess...............take care,ron
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#10 full auto 45

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 09:51 PM

Thompson's and Harley's. Huh? Ok, who wants to trade my Ultra loaded for their Colt in case? I need a Colt. wink.gif
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#11 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 10:31 PM

Ron,
What is the latest serial numbered Colt you have physically examined? Also, back in 1991, Vollmer advertised over 30 Colt's at a time in Shotgun News. #10284 was described as, "96%, Near Mint. Outstanding gun!", for $8,000. The rest of the guns were advertised "conservatively" over 90%, except for three at 85%. I mean these good guns were there for the taking not so long ago. Now it takes a while before a buyer is clued in to a 90%+ example on the market. And because of the recent inflation, the ones said to be 96%+ are dubiously blued, etc. The days when gun show tables had a dozen or more Colt's displayed for sale seems a relic of the not so distant past.

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#12 colt21a

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Posted 23 December 2003 - 12:29 AM

heck the last ones at sar show in phx.besides #274 that i sold off about three or so years ago,i bought about ten colts from fred,all 95% or better,i got to pick and choose out of forty,so i snatched up the best,even bought that peru,il gun that was a 27 converted back to a 21ac,restamped and reblued of course.

sorry to say i did not get a chance to write down all serial numbers i was too busy looking,when i met cox in 1975 he had at least fifty in the room i was in.at that time bought one of the best 21ac had,even ended up with a few off a guy who sold a collection to irv kahn in the late 70's

i traveled from n.y.to calif,for thompson's.........been through 44 of the fifty states,so had alot of miles under my belt......i guess roger cox gets the prize of the most mileage,and earl for the most colt's....

and myself..............good memories.

most colts fall in the 75% to 90% category.anything i have ever seen above 95% i bought it.if it was for sale.....

my worst gun's #103 #98 #2137 #894 and two of those were restored after i had them,initials carved in serial #98................my best #6011#5050#3283#12136#6006#8476#7519 a few others i have to go through the list..there was alot..

it was fun looking through 50 colts or more,and every one had something different about it,different rivet's blueing hue wood,even of course late frame, early frame, square cut rec.slot, even had a late date 28 navy early frame features..............

i wish i had a pic book of the 1,000 plus i have seen. that would be a best seller..............and well documented to what was what, when it was............

well the wife has the sahara dvd ready.and bogart is screamin "you want us come and get us!!!

now if in the "wild bunch" one of my fav's they would have had a thompson,funny thing,the movie was 1913 period...........the gun a 1917 watercooled........wink!!

but what the heck ole stevie wielded a 1918 marlin -rockwell bar in "sand pebbles"so that made up for the mistake.wha..the hell happened.....??? take care,ron
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#13 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 23 December 2003 - 07:47 PM

Ron,
I should have said what was the highest (instead of latest) serial numbered Colt you have seeen. I know you owned #13656, but how frequently have you encountered any 14,000 to 15,000, or even one over 15,000?


Sam Peckinpaugh fired the special effects guy on "The Wild Bunch" because he neglected to bring sufficient ammo down to Mexico for the bank hold up scene, and the final scene. As far as "The Sand Pebbles", they could have used some First Navy Contract Colt's on the San Pablo, along witrh the B.A.R. It would only have been off by 1 year, seeing how the film takes place in 1926.

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#14 colt21a

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Posted 23 December 2003 - 08:36 PM

#14446 and 14614...........never did see a 15000 gun i doubt anybody has.........but you never know>>>>>>>>
take care,ron

and i think 14xxx something in phx.four years ago i never wrote it down,
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#15 Zamm

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Posted 23 December 2003 - 09:02 PM

Hwy Mike,
Is that a Harley or a sports car?!!
Nice bike, you sure have a good "Toy Taste Gland"!
Cheers, Zamm
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#16 full auto 45

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Posted 24 December 2003 - 07:18 AM

Zamm, it has everything but tilt wheel and air conditioning! Now if I can just work on a Thompson scabbard for it, I'll be all right.
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